ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

making it harder for the players to detect those issues won't solve anything

 

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

take away the dps meters and it gets worse: now people will just stick to the "perfect" comp out of blind faith; with a meter i don't have to give a kitten what people are playing, i can see whether it's effective or not as they go

 

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

since pugging content is getting easier and easier, we can perhaps conclude the community is mostly making the right choices

 

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

a parsed encounter dps report is basically the only way for a player or their mentor to see what they're doing wrong with their rotations; nobody's ever given me crap when my dps is half of someone else's on some encounter in high-tier fractal pug groups, because no one even notices if you're correctly clearing the content

[Chichimec.9364]

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

Yawn
I don't need to prove anything to you. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

This much is true.  There's a big balance disparity at the moment with firebrand and mechanist overperforming in their roles compared to other classes that provide similar key boons that has these two classes over-represented but, since they're so easy to play, it actually allows less skilled individuals into groups and completing content they normally wouldn't be able to.
 

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

And most LFGs  search for generic versions of classes.  They'll search for Condi/Power DPS Pending on the fight and Heal/DPS variants of the classes that provide boons.

 

5 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

Tell me you weren't around back when dungeons were ran daily without telling me you weren't around when dungeons were ran daily.  Do you want to go back to kicking the perceived worst class even though that player is actually performing well and keep the underperforming meta class in your party?  Removing tools to see and gauge performance is a good way to go about doing that.  I'd rather not go back to the stoneage of class prejudice.

[Cronospere.8143]

5 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

This is actually something i agree on. But also. For me its too complex and complicated to even try understand the different possibilities. 

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 The problem is and always will be where people try to criticise other players based on meter results and builds in a context where it is not relevant, e.g if in a normal dungeon x and the dps needed to kill a boss is say Y dps, they criticise where actually the group is already doing far far more than Y DPs that is required (which is a matter of fact since builds have incrementally become more powerful with ascended gear and food etc)  Sometimes this is toxic players who are really saying, 'im so good, your bad' in a passive aggressive way.

I.e in raids meters are a good thing, in a 5 man normal fractal it was not needed 5 years ago, and certainly not today..

If a group is advertising in such a way as to indicate that they are aiming for BiS builds/classes, then more power to them. I dont try to join if I am playing something they do not want. I have the option to create my own more relaxed requirements group if I so desire. There is nothing toxic about a group preferring to play a fractal with people who share a similar interest in the fastest/smoothest/etc time. The toxicity comes into play when someone not willing or able to meet the advertised requirements for a group attempts to join and force the rest of the group to play his way....or when a min/max player joins a group advertised as casual and attacks others for not being min/maxed.

[MarkoGold.7126]

5 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

People are free to play how they like some like dps meters if you dont you can always make your own squad with no dps meter. But dont expect others to do it for you i think the players of this game are way to entitled and dont want to put on the effort to make the squad they just complain and complain.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

Feelin' some big bait energy here

[SamuelW.2685]

Bait thread 

[Diak Atoli.2085]

30 minutes ago, SuavePuppy.2809 said:

Feelin' some big bait energy here

 

8 minutes ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Bait thread 

It is, and an easy topic, too. The serious responses are nice, though. Some actual discussion.

[Mungrul.9358]

The problem is that it's become a negative feedback loop; people have concentrated on DPS and healing, so encounter design has shifted more towards those specs, resulting in the players asking for MORE healing and DPS, ad infinitum.

 

The other problem is that boss encounters are the only thing people really care about measuring, and these are artificial in many respects, once again acting as a lens to focus on DPS and healing, because for about 90% of the time spent battling bosses, control skills are redundant.

 

Yet as a solo player in open world, I rely on control skills to prevent a lot of the damage I would receive from mobs that aren't artificially hardened by break bar mechanics. ARC simply won't reflect how much time the enemy is disabled , or how much damage disabling them has prevented.

 

DPS meters have always been problematic in MMOs where developers balance the game based on player feedback. The games eventually become laser focussed on the DPS race and lose all nuance.

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

The problem is that it's become a negative feedback loop; people have concentrated on DPS and healing, so encounter design has shifted more towards those specs, resulting in the players asking for MORE healing and DPS, ad infinitum.

Not really, devs didn't design group encounters based on existance of 3rd party meters. The devs have those stats available on their side anyways. Visibility for the players just gives the players more accurate feedback and makes improvement easier.

 

16 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Yet as a solo player in open world, I rely on control skills to prevent a lot of the damage I would receive from mobs that aren't artificially hardened by break bar mechanics. ARC simply won't reflect how much time the enemy is disabled , or how much damage disabling them has prevented.

I don't see how killing/ccing some mobs in ow is in any way relevant to this thread or existance of meters. If you're running around in ow and do perfectly fine by whatever means -cc or not- then what's the issue here? Are people somehow telling you not to play what you want to play or what exactly is the point you're going for with this?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Jirian.7512]

um.... so let me get this right. you are basically asking people to stop accepting anyone without 250+ kp into raids?

 

i hate to tell you this, but raids and cm strikes are endgame content, and they require at least minimal knowledge of your class, and you are basically telling anet it should force people to carry all those 4k dragonhunters and other "i am playing for fun so i don't care about learning my class" people through said content.

[Asum.4960]

8 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

There isn't anything to prove here, we have been there. 

A lack of DPS meters doesn't mean everybody suddenly plays perfectly and that every run is a success - the same problems with the same consequences will still exist, just with less information available to players to make judgement calls for the best of the group. 

All that means is more actual discrimination - with players getting unjustly kicked based on factors unrelated to their then unknown performance, such as for example more discrimination against non-meta classes/specs, nonsense like amount of Achievement Points, etc. 

 

If you are a new player in a Raid with an off-meta build/spec, but you actually prepared, practiced and are trying, and are performing well enough, yet the group is constantly failing and wiping due to clearly too low group DPS and is starting to get agitated - would you rather be in a group where everybody has a DPS meter to clearly address where the actual problem points are, or be instantly targeted just for being unexperienced/playing off-meta, despite doing great (which no one can know or verify)?

 

And that's beyond the primary use of DPS meters as being a fantastic tool for self-improvement to get to that point of good group contribution in the first place. 

 

DPS meters easily are a net-positive to the game and community, the only exception being for players actively leeching or trolling their groups - and I'd classify limiting the influence and prevalence of such players by being able to correctly identify them a positive too. 

 

Quote

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

This is entirely down to modern meta-gaming culture emerging with the information age. And sure, you might want to partially blame DPS meters for that, but you can't roll back time on this. 

Even if you were to ban DPS Meters, remove the Golem testing area, etc., players would still parse performance of builds ingame, publish their findings, and players would still copy the published builds and tactics. 

All it would accomplish is making the process far more tedious, and the results worse. 

So you'd be in the same culture/age of gaming, just worse for everybody involved.

Less information isn't the answer here, and it's not how you can shift this culture, just how you lose players.

 

Quote

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

This is mostly coming down to lack of highly incentivised/forced grouping throughout the especially early-mid game experience, as well as lack of difficulty (to teach the games mechanics and testing that knowledge/ability) and need for community building there. 

Whether you like that aspect of the game or not, that's the consequence. It has little to nothing to do with DPS meters. 

 

If you don't have players getting used to grouping throughout their acclimation period with the game, as well as not having people of different mindsets and abilities communicate and exchanging ideas and knowledge early, they settle into their mindsets in fairly extreme ways, in this ingame case such as entitlement (about one owns playstyle or access to other's groups/carries no matter what) or elitism (about ones own ability, or expectations of others). 

 

Most importantly, most players aren't naturally guided/pushed into being part of diverse and supporting guilds/communities by the end of their mainline journey, which could then encourage and support them in their transition to other, especially group based, content as well, by providing both guidance, clearly good faith feedback and an environment that feels safe(er) to fail in. 

 

Not to say the ability to solo the vast majority of this game, or to just seamlessly play together without ever having to communicate or group doesn't have it's benefits - but the direct cost of that convenience is the immense hurdle and struggle players then face the moment grouping isn't optional - as well as the pronounced fissure between "casual" and "hardcore" players in this community. 

 

DPS Meters did nothing to cause or worsen this. If anything it can lessen that impact. Just because the tool is referenced as justification/source of information for a consequence of lack of group contribution, doesn't mean that same consequence (although more likely to be misguided/unfairly distributed) wouldn't have been reached anyway without.

 

~Someone who was very critical, if not afraid of, DPS Meters before using it myself, and subsequently realising what a tremendously helpful tool it is, both in improving my understanding of the game and gameplay/performance, as well as in my ability to mitigate and combat toxicity and discrimination.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Asum.4960

[patton the great.7126]

I don't run Arc. Never have and never will. I don't trust 3rd party non reputable software. I measure my success by the hate tells I receive and by the scalps I collect. Truthfully my end game content is geared more toward skilled pvp play vs mindless spam such as PvE. Arc is probably a great measuring stick while watching how to youtube kill a boss.

[Labjax.2465]

I feel like this is touching on a much deeper set of problems in what has become standard design of MMORPGs. Like one of those iceberg memes and the tip of it is "DPS meters cause players to be more toxic." And underneath that you've got stuff like "encounters are based on how quickly you can bring a boss's HP to 0" and underneath that "classes are based on maximizing output of things like damage, healing, and defense."

GW2 is a little more non-traditional than a trinity MMO in this way, but the encounter design is still more or less the same, the class design still has more or less the same priorities. The main difference seems to be that with GW2 classes, party buffs (boons) are added to the mix in a big way, along with every class being capable of bringing some damage, healing, and defense, as opposed to specializing in only one. So like, everybody is bringing the traditional stuff to the table, or at least can, to a limited degree and is also a bard lol.

Which doesn't fundamentally make it any less about how quickly you can bring a boss's HP to 0.

Some of the encounter design does override that a bit with mechanics, where the mechanics is where the difficulty is more so than DPS checks and I think that's one way this game has done a sort of magic trick illusion of avoiding some of the DPS culture and contention. But then they did EoD final meta with a significant DPS check (relative to open world culture/expectations) and now that has put DPS front and center in a way it wasn't before, or at least not as pervasively in player awareness. But the class design is no more trinity than it was before, so DPS as critically important has become more pervasive in player awareness without the underlying class design to support it and that is a contradiction that is flowing over into players blaming each other.

[stormemperor.3745]

8 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

 

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would

make all classes balanced. I saw weavers doing their rotations, apm going over 9k getting carpal tunnel syndrome all the while getting bottom dps...

Why? because anet nerfs fun classes. 

I wish everyone could play any class anywhere and get good results from it. Not best results just good. I simply want variety.

[firedragon.8953]

I like arcDPS. It let's me know how I performing, and often times let's me realize if I am doing something wrong because I may have been spacing something out.
As a commander in raids, it is a really useful tool. Many times you can choose to skip certain mechanics and make the right calls if dps is high enough, looking at your squad's dps with ArcDPS is a more concrete way to see something like how many more cannons you should take a Sabetha or if you can ignore cannons and just dps the last percent. 

I'm going to echo what many others have said, and most people against dps meters are against improving their own gameplay. Is your dps too low and you're getting kicked, the answer is to improve your dps, not remove meters. Most groups don't really care about huge dps if they can clear the content. If a group is wiping and each pull is taking a long time and someone in a dps role is pulling 3k dps or something, then yeah...you will probably be replaced. This is fun for no one who wants to clear the bosses. That said, I've been in groups that have top tier dps and still fail because everyone downs because dps tunnel vison prevents proper execution mechanics. I've been in groups with meh dps but everyone does mechanics well and we clear. A meter also helps makes this abundantly clear.

As far as class "viablity", it is much less an issue than you think. Personally, I don't care what people play, as long as they play it well. Anyone is welcome to join my squads for exp runs if they prove themselves in the battle, I don't check people's meta builds, or KP, LI, etc., etc. I recommend you buy a commander tag and lead the groups you want to see, if you're having issues. Play how you want, no? I want to play with Arc, you don't. The ability to choose is the important thing here.

 

Quote

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

This is evidence of misaligned expectations. If you're learning end game content, you shouldn't be joining exp clear run groups. Training and practice runs rarely (if ever?) put an emphasis on dps. That said, you should also be practicing your dps rotation on the golem by yourself and be familiar with your profession if playing a non-dps role so that you don't drag other people down. High end content trainings are generally for learning the encounters, not for learning your dps rotation.

[Vanthian.9267]

9 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The majority of people who use Arc don't really care about your damage.

lol.  lmao even.

[mythical.6315]

11 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

prove me wrong

 

Prove that you’re right first. 

[Trogs.1802]

12 hours ago, Aelin.9317 said:

However, ffxiv will punish very harshly if it is used as a means to belittle. I am glad of this also. I hope this is also the case here! Weaponizing the dps meter is not cool. 

Except recently a huge amounts of bans went out to innocent people using ACT... a bunch of streamers showcasing the meter were banned. 

They have 0 tolerance for dps meters, regardless of intent. You have to be absolutely certain that no one in your group or others are aware you are using one. Because they can simply report you, and poof, you're banned. 

 

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, firedragon.8953 said:

I'm going to echo what many others have said, and most people against dps meters are against improving their own gameplay. Is your dps too low and you're getting kicked, the answer is to improve your dps, not remove meters. Most groups don't really care about huge dps if they can clear the content. If a group is wiping and each pull is taking a long time and someone in a dps role is pulling 3k dps or something, then yeah...you will probably be replaced. This is fun for no one who wants to clear the bosses. That said, I've been in groups that have top tier dps and still fail because everyone downs because dps tunnel vison prevents proper execution mechanics. I've been in groups with meh dps but everyone does mechanics well and we clear. A meter also helps makes this abundantly clear.

I'm not sure forbidding them would really help anything in this game, but I do think it's a pretty bad faith take to say that people against DPS meters are against improving their own gameplay. You yourself provided a reason as to why someone might be against DPS meters that has nothing to do with the skill of the person making the criticism; that some players become entranced with the charts and die to mechanics because of it.

And with the way this game has the special forces training area with a kind of meter within it, there is a way to gauge how roughly effective you can be in DPS playing a particular build with a particular rotation, without needing to have a meter with you everywhere you go. So in that sense, you could be against DPS meters as something players carry around, while still supporting the idea of being able to gauge class and personal performance in a controlled setting.

[Moradorin.6217]

14 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

DPS meters help people play better by helping them see what is working and what isnt if they do correct comparisons themselves. Benchmarks just show people what each class/build can do with a specific set of gear, food, boons. The classes that are meta get picked because of the boon uptime they have and how they fit into either 5 or 10 man comp with other current classes. That doesn't mean, for instance, that when Holo is no longer on the snowcrows meta list that people will complain if you bring a holo for dps. At worst it means if you bring a non-meta class to a raid, T4/CM fractals, etc you should be able to perform well with it or say up front that you wana run that. As long as your dps isnt horrible and the lfg didnt say speed run you shouldnt expect to run into any issues (rare cases people are lame).

 

I do run arc and most of the time I dont see anyone complain when people have low dps, certain encounters DPS becomes the crux of winning. Gorseval is one for instance that DPS matters allot and some times its necessary to kick people or change tactics and do walls which many people will refuse to do cause its much harder.

 

The best suggestions I can think of is first to try avoiding lfg that sound very demanding if you arent sure about your dps or boon uptime. If people complain be up front about your situation what ever that is and maybe they will let it go easier than u imagine. If they dont maybe find a friendlier group or swap to a meta build you feel good on. Last, setup and learn to use arc. Spend some time with some easy meta builds and compare them to what you run now. Be honest with yourself about which is best. Then just try to be flexible and see what happens. I bet you would find its not that hard to have solid dps.

 

One last thing that might be worth mentioning is that many of the meta builds have little steps that can be omitted when learning them to simplify the rotations. Much of the time they have minimal impact on your dps. Its always important to look over your traits and skills and determine why the meta builds use the skills in the order they do so that you can make educated choices about prioritizing the skills you use.

 

If this all sounds obvious then you probably shouldn't have posted with the prove me wrong thing.

 

Finally, I will repeat that if you perform well as DPS no one will care what class you are playing. Same for boons provided you can provide close enough to what the meta provides to get the job done. That said, its usually easiest to look for the latest meta fan boy like power mech if you want an easy time getting high numbers. I still really enjoy playing holosmith myself and no one seems to complain when I do.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[mercury ranique.2170]

understanding is a three edged sword. Your side, their side and the truth.

Yes you are correct that part of the community tends to overfocus on DPS, making them blind for all else that moves.
But also understand why and how dps-meters play an important role in some specific content in the game.

So both are corect. Just understand there should be a healthy balance between using DPS-meters and making them the only viable source of information bout how succesfull a build, a group of players or an individual is. When the people you play with lack this balance, while you have it, look for other people to play with. If you find a hard time finding those people, it is more likely you who lacks the balance.

[Moradorin.6217]

42 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm not sure forbidding them would really help anything in this game, but I do think it's a pretty bad faith take to say that people against DPS meters are against improving their own gameplay. You yourself provided a reason as to why someone might be against DPS meters that has nothing to do with the skill of the person making the criticism; that some players become entranced with the charts and die to mechanics because of it.

And with the way this game has the special forces training area with a kind of meter within it, there is a way to gauge how roughly effective you can be in DPS playing a particular build with a particular rotation, without needing to have a meter with you everywhere you go. So in that sense, you could be against DPS meters as something players carry around, while still supporting the idea of being able to gauge class and personal performance in a controlled setting.

Yea but the golem really doesn't teach u much about your dps. For instance, what about confusion, and torrment. What about real world application in general. Running Arc for boon uptime lets me see when Im getting boon coverage to my party or not and to whome. It lets me see when my CC is hitting at the correct time by seeing my CC damage. Its really super useful people should learn to use it and enjoy the benefits of the insight it provides into you playing.

 

Arc can show things like "Personal Skills": which skills are doing what % of your total damage also which things are causing you the most damage by %. You can see your Boon uptime, CC damage, a graph of your damage on each target. It can make a log of the fight that you can use to review the entire fight in a basic animation that shows the player positions and all the damage, boons, effects during the fight. Its really amazing information.

[firedragon.8953]

34 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

that some players become entranced with the charts and die to mechanics because of it.

To clarify, I didn't mean they were entranced with "the charts" but rather their rotations to the point they they treat the boss like a training golem. I don't even know if these players are using arcDPS (they probably are  though).

It's possible I over generalized, but then why should other's be "against DPS meters as something players carry around?" I'm not sure why others should care if other players use a DPS meter unless they feel they have "performance issues" and wish to conceal it. I'd be happy to hear about what you consider another reason though, because I am genuinely curious why people would care otherwise.
 

39 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

And with the way this game has the special forces training area with a kind of meter within it, there is a way to gauge how roughly effective you can be in DPS

Let me describe a scenario. A squad is fighting Sabetha, and the platform and Sabetha is low on "health." Now, if I look at my arcDPS and see three people doing 20k dps I can assume we can kill Sabetha before the platform is destroyed if we just focus on DPS, allowing to skip more cannon mechanics and possibly more mistakes or a longer time in the fight where people could die. Sure, I could guess this is possible based on how fast we burned the boss up until that point, but without the meter I actually wouldn't know who was suppling that 20k dps. What if 2 dps died a few moments earlier and they were the top dps performers? Without arcDPS telling me who is performing at what level, you may end up making the wrong call and wiping at the last 15% of a boss or something. 

Toxic people are going to be toxic if they have a meter or not. Removing meters will not make a more "inclusive" environment. You'll just see more 200 KP groups in lfg, which arguably is even worse since it doesn't really gauge performance and gives new players a zero chance of breaking into content. I'd actually argue that the game should have a built-in meter since then players who practiced on their own, gauged their dps across many scenarios, can confidently join an end game group with their combat performance.