NA WvW is in freefall

[Knighthonor.4061]

@"c space cowboy.2764" said:Mounts killed roaming and raised the ceiling for noobs to enter wvw.

Gliding was added as content but noone wanted it as it did the same thing mounts did.

Instead of people meeting open field and fighting, everyone flees.

Fleeing from fights means no content.

No updates means no content.

And so far everything anet has done has driven the veteran players away because lack of content.

24+ guilds have quit since end of may.

Get the themed word here?

Content. There is none. As soon as the fights die on reset everyone logs off. No fights? Noone logs on. Its simple.

People ran before Mounts and gliders were added. WvW started dying in vanilla long before gliders were even added to vanilla PvE maps.Roamers are a minority. Most players are in groups. Roamers as you call it only picked on lone players running back tor he zerg.

Subjective but Zerg fights are more fun since it lead to better fights and less rock VS paper battles.

Objective facts here, zerg also provides the most rewarding gameplay for WvExp.

Mounts provides players faster route back to the zerg, which is why more people started playing after Mounts were added than before. Still dying regardless since that wasn't the problem in the first place.

Somebody mentions this analogy already.WvW is like "Who's Line Is It Anyway" show in which you have points but those points are meaningless since there is no winners or losers. There are no real objective in this game mode. Just mindless fighting and structure trading. Structure trading being the most rewarding and least soloable form of gameplay in WvW.

There are no meaningful solo objectives for gameplay outside the zerg that contribute to the "Win" for your faction.

Just meaningless fighting as said before. That's why WvW is dying. Has nothing to do with Mounts since they actually got a jump in population from the addition of Mounts.

[SWI.4127]

They got a temporary jump in populations with mounts, but did it last? Let's say we look at the game right before mounts, then 3 months after mounts. Would you really say that we gained people during that time? If anything, I would bet that population shrank overall with the mount update. And now, it is forever in the game mode as a huge hurdle for any new players to overcome. Terrible for the game mode in the long-term. But they got their release, sold a few skin packs, so I'm sure they patted themselves on the back and claimed a job well done.

[LetoII.3782]

@SWI.4127 said:They got a temporary jump in populations with mounts, but did it last? Let's say we look at the game right before mounts, then 3 months after mounts. Would you really say that we gained people during that time? If anything, I would bet that population shrank overall with the mount update. And now, it is forever in the game mode as a huge hurdle for any new players to overcome. Terrible for the game mode in the long-term. But they got their release, sold a few skin packs, so I'm sure they patted themselves on the back and claimed a job well done.

It was a glorious, bloody week.But that's all it was.Then all the collectors were off to the next pve thing.

[Grim West.3194]

WvW has always had the same basic problem. Winning the match doesn't require any skill, just coverage.

WvW might be the most pathetic version of RvR ever created. And even worse is that ANET never had the competence or inclination to fix it. They just mouth pathetic BS to keep the transfer idiots hooked.

[Aeolus.3615]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Dunno what you guys are talking about, the population is finally spreading out, we have 15 servers on even terms now, just need the other 9 to get on board.

I suppose they're even in a way, body count wise.But say, nsp having it's blob logon at 3am while mag and yb both logoff around midnight still makes for an unbalanced match. Less people is exacerbating coverage issues if anything.

Nsp at EU time zone sometimes we are 5-15 against 2 bloby servers... it’s the big vs medium vs small server effect depending the timezone. Sometimes I get a huge group on nsp but others server are offline it’s an awfull concept...I don’t have fun on ktrain so I’m forced to log Off.

Let’s hope with alliance system things will get more spreaded.

[HoneyBadger.5691]

It's really sad to see so many vet / tryhard players go and it's not going to get better until changes are made to the game mode to remedy it.

Read: changes, not empty promises or Soon™.

Do something.

Yesterday.

[chad.8701]

27 minutes into reset.Feels bad.

[Strider Pj.2193]

That’s a bigger queue than BG lol

[Acheron.4731]

ANET doesn't give wvw any of their time and effort.Just return the favor ;)

[Sviel.7493]

@Grim West.3194 said:WvW has always had the same basic problem. Winning the match doesn't require any skill, just coverage.

WvW might be the most pathetic version of RvR ever created. And even worse is that ANET never had the competence or inclination to fix it. They just mouth pathetic BS to keep the transfer idiots hooked.

I don't think WvW was dead on arrival so much as they just stopped updating it after the backfire from tournaments. The rest of the game continued to improve while WvW was essentially frozen and had it's animating purpose (winning matches) permanently disabled. In that situation, of course things go south.

Then they dropped HoT and tried to update WvW as if they hadn't let it fester for several years. They got a ton of negative pushback in part because they made some poor decisions (as is inevitable) but also in part because the remaining audience was not made up of people who actually want to play the game WvW was originally intended to be. You can't really blame them since, for years, the purpose of the game was just getting clean, open-field fights. Those can be fun (or could be back then) and certainly had more purpose than the aborted PPT system.

And then they dropped semi-random changes here and there with no discernible goal in mind. Some encouraged one thing, some another, but were they still trying to bring back the old purpose of WvW or were they embracing the new one? Who knows...but there were several solid improvements in this period. Skirmishes are definitely a big, good thing. Reward tracks are also good. Squads are clearly amazing. But, eventually, that momentum died. We're back to a sort of ghost town, but they at least told the balancing team we exist and that's had...mixed results.

I know it still feels like we're neglected, but I think that's not so much the result of a lack of updates (though that's a part) as a lack of vision. We have no idea what they're shooting for or if they'll ever give WvW an actual purpose or just acquiesce to the brute, player-driven purpose. It's rough to twist in the wind for so long.

[XenesisII.1540]

Tick tock, tick tock... Another NA server falls to medium Sorrows Furnace(the one of the two servers that were full when BG opened btw). Meanwhile EU is moving their population upwards.

[DKRathalos.9625]

It's a little bit worrying though if we compare NA to EU, like... 1 Full 1 Very High 6 High and the rest is Medium, while EU they got 4 Full and 4 Very High

[LetoII.3782]

Wow lookit nsp and dragonbrand moving on up! Sea guilds gonna have to fight each other if this keeps up O.O

[Shroud.2307]

@LetoII.3782 said:Wow lookit nsp and dragonbrand moving on up! Sea guilds gonna have to fight each other if this keeps up O.O

They've got 3 whole maps to avoid each other on so they're in the clear for now.

[kraai.7265]

@"Panicbutton.9426" said:Unfortunately I personally think we've passed the tipping point now, it would take something so radical we'd all think it was actual magic to restore the WvW player base. For Anet to deliver on such a change would require apparently massive shifts in mindset and culture. The only events I can think of that would inspire an action so drastic are a new CEO coming in who actually sees the value in WvW or Anet being sold to a company that similarly sees the value in WvW.

Based on their track record there is a vanishingly small chance that Anet will all of a sudden have a eureka moment regarding WvW and do something about it.

It's sad but the likelihood is that even if they invest a ton of effort into alliances and class balance and rewards (and all the other things we've been asking for, in some cases literally screaming for it until blue in the face) it's too late.

A lack of commitment to the game mode, a lack of understanding (of both the game mode and the players that enjoy it) and a general neglect have all led us to this point. In my mind Anet simply do not understand or know how to run a WvW game. If they announced GW3 tomorrow and it was 100% WvW I wouldn't play it, they can't be trusted to develop and run these kind of games. I guess that's ok, everyone should play to their strengths and have a niche they fit in comfortably - for Anet that niche is not PvP or WvW, it's PvE in the format of a living world with episodic updates.

The only thing that has stopped the game mode hemorrhaging players faster (and the only reason that I personally still play at all) is the fact that there's no good alternatives out there (unless you like spaceships). If another good WvW game was available all of the borderlands would be ghost towns 24/7 and not just 22/6.75. There's another game in development (you all know of that which I speak!) and there must be a 1000+ ex-GW2 WvW nerds sitting on their discord server every day 'actively waiting' for that game to come out and there's nothing to play yet! The market is there.

That's what makes this whole fiasco so frustrating - there was a great initial product (pre-HoT WvW was pretty good), there is a really passionate player base just waiting to throw their money at this kind of product, and Anet basically pooped the bed on it. They could have cornered the market and been "the" WvW game for a decade if anyone sat at the decision making table had even half a clue about WvW. It's difficult to say for sure whether that's an accidental ommission because they never had the knowledge and understanding - or if it was a deliberate choice based on metrics we can't see or personal preferences of their execs or what - I'm choosing to believe it was accidental based on ignorance.

I wish they'd have sacrificed just one episode of living story per year, just one episode, and spent that time and money on WvW instead. It wouldn't have taken much, but investing next to nothing at all was always going to kill it.

Hope i don't get hate for recommending other games in this forum, but i actually moved to ESO a while back, and even tho i doubt it would be any good, after i got into the game and understood combat im having a blast, and cyrodiil feels incredible, massive map with real builds that crumble apart in pieces slowly under catapult fire

also i feel they did great finding creative ways to counter mechanics even this game is having trouble with, for example if someone use stealth there and get hit stealth is canceled, so if you apply poison to a nightblade he won't be able to stealth until he heals that poison effect, same with every condi, but they are meant to be played this way, there isn's so much focus on conditios as in this game

also a few more i would suggest are archeage unchained, if you like pirates, open world pvp, naval battles and so, it has no "wvw" type of gameplay tho

gloria victis, completely realistic medieval warfare with no fantasy, large scale battles and i think mounted combat too

and two upcoming ones

ashes of creation, it supposed to have everything you could ever ask for.. idkcamelot unchained, the son daoc never had, this has been so long in crowdfunding state some peeps are starting to doubt it but you never know, it's from the creators of daoc, they knew how to handle that game

[ugrakarma.9416]

u are asking too much to the single developer taking care of this gamemode.

[displayname.8315]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:It's a little bit worrying though if we compare NA to EU, like... 1 Full 1 Very High 6 High and the rest is Medium, while EU they got 4 Full and 4 Very High

EU will be there soon look how fast things dropped out in NA. Guess the main guilds really are all leaving.

Such a shame since there still enough people to make an new matchup system work.. but not for long.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@kraai.7265 said:

@"Panicbutton.9426" said:Unfortunately I personally think we've passed the tipping point now, it would take something so radical we'd all think it was actual magic to restore the WvW player base. For Anet to deliver on such a change would require apparently massive shifts in mindset and culture. The only events I can think of that would inspire an action so drastic are a new CEO coming in who actually sees the value in WvW or Anet being sold to a company that similarly sees the value in WvW.

Based on their track record there is a vanishingly small chance that Anet will all of a sudden have a eureka moment regarding WvW and do something about it.

It's sad but the likelihood is that even if they invest a ton of effort into alliances and class balance and rewards (and all the other things we've been asking for, in some cases literally screaming for it until blue in the face) it's too late.

A lack of commitment to the game mode, a lack of understanding (of both the game mode and the players that enjoy it) and a general neglect have all led us to this point. In my mind Anet simply do not understand or know how to run a WvW game. If they announced GW3 tomorrow and it was 100% WvW I wouldn't play it, they can't be trusted to develop and run these kind of games. I guess that's ok, everyone should play to their strengths and have a niche they fit in comfortably - for Anet that niche is not PvP or WvW, it's PvE in the format of a living world with episodic updates.

The only thing that has stopped the game mode hemorrhaging players faster (and the only reason that I personally still play at all) is the fact that there's no good alternatives out there (unless you like spaceships). If another good WvW game was available all of the borderlands would be ghost towns 24/7 and not just 22/6.75. There's another game in development (you all know of that which I speak!) and there must be a 1000+ ex-GW2 WvW nerds sitting on their discord server every day 'actively waiting' for that game to come out and there's nothing to play yet! The market is there.

That's what makes this whole fiasco so frustrating - there was a great initial product (pre-HoT WvW was pretty good), there is a really passionate player base just waiting to throw their money at this kind of product, and Anet basically pooped the bed on it. They could have cornered the market and been "the" WvW game for a decade if anyone sat at the decision making table had even half a clue about WvW. It's difficult to say for sure whether that's an accidental ommission because they never had the knowledge and understanding - or if it was a deliberate choice based on metrics we can't see or personal preferences of their execs or what - I'm choosing to believe it was accidental based on ignorance.

I wish they'd have sacrificed just one episode of living story per year, just one episode, and spent that time and money on WvW instead. It wouldn't have taken much, but investing next to nothing at all was always going to kill it.

Hope i don't get hate for recommending other games in this forum, but i actually moved to ESO a while back, and even tho i doubt it would be any good, after i got into the game and understood combat im having a blast, and cyrodiil feels incredible, massive map with real builds that crumble apart in pieces slowly under catapult fire

also i feel they did great finding creative ways to counter mechanics even this game is having trouble with, for example if someone use stealth there and get hit stealth is canceled, so if you apply poison to a nightblade he won't be able to stealth until he heals that poison effect, same with every condi, but they are meant to be played this way, there isn's so much focus on conditios as in this game

also a few more i would suggest are archeage unchained, if you like pirates, open world pvp, naval battles and so, it has no "wvw" type of gameplay tho

gloria victis, completely realistic medieval warfare with no fantasy, large scale battles and i think mounted combat too

and two upcoming ones

ashes of creation, it supposed to have everything you could ever ask for.. idkcamelot unchained, the son daoc never had, this has been so long in crowdfunding state some peeps are starting to doubt it but you never know, it's from the creators of daoc, they knew how to handle that game

Lol I did the exact same thing and shared ur fears about the game but as u did once I got used to the combat the game is a blast. The pve is on another level compared to gw2, so much more immersive and as a mainly pvp'er in gw2 the pvp matches if not beats gw2 especially cyrodiil. The combat has way more depth and variety. I'm very glad I gave the game a real chance. I still love gw2 but eso is definitely the better game for me atleast.Definitely gonna try unchained as well.

[Excursion.9752]

I hear what people are saying. But what I found everything is reliant on commanders. They don't even have to be great commanders. People want someone to follow. The best ones have a schedule everyone knows. Here is what happens on my server. There will be no que on a map but as soon as a particular commander comes online here lately over a 30 man que pops on that map that he is in within 5 minutes. Everyone knows he is online at the same time every night.

I think people are losing interest because WvW is losing people who want to command. So people are migrating to servers who have coverage in the timezone that they can play in. Aside from the guild alliance server switching that has been happening. Most of the "why are people leaving" have been noted in other comments so we don't need to beat that horse.

I believe anet has one chance to get it right upon the next major release to WvW. People will come back, even those who proclaim they will not, to test the waters. Anet needs to release such an update that keeps people wanting more and that will involve making some pretty big changes. Everyone is very skeptical and just waiting on this myth of an update that we will get sometime in the future.

On a personal note there have been some pretty good fights in the T2 - T3 range as of late. But T4 can be hit an miss and when its a miss its a ghost town in NA. I also think there needs to be bigger incentives for people to command even smaller groups that are public.

[pukish.5784]

@LetoII.3782 said:Wow lookit nsp and dragonbrand moving on up! Sea guilds gonna have to fight each other if this keeps up O.O

Asians at Dragonbrand went to Fort Aspenwood and some BG asian guilds also went to there.Next week BG JQ/SoS and FA Asian Wars will happen.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:A lot of dedicated players moved away from the format/game with the release of mounts.

People can kick and scream about how much they want to ride their cats and the huge surge of people who came into the mode when it launched (due to the free mount skin, not anything relevant to the mode itself), but one of the primary reasons why WvW populations have been in decline has been broken combat dynamics such as the elite specs, and mounts just dialed it to 11.

I see a lot of fake informations now that many players who like the mounts have already stopped playing or left WvW and go back to PvE. Only a handful who are still clinging onto WvW cared to defend it.

If you guys check through the history of the forum, you can see that it's always the same few forum veterans posting toxic comments and giving fake infos on how the mount killed WvW.

If you are a regular WvW players, playing WvW for hours every day over the past years, and constantly in T1 or T2 where all the actions are, Zerg fights and PPT, you will agree that powercreep and dead metas that lead to low populations every where are the only reasons why more and more players, guilds are giving up.

It has never been about the Warclaw Please don't lie. WvWers love the Warclaw. But, gankers on the other hand, have been trying very hard to kill it since it's launch in Feb. Warclaws took away their only fun of jumping on unsuspecting players, forcing fights on support build players.

These players mostly mained non meta classes, they are not welcomed in zergs or organised group fights and hence they make the most noise in the forum, asking for nerfs and more. But never any of these noise makers left the game. Seriously, I wish they did though. They are here every day asking for more nerfs to the mount.

Please stop spreading fake informatons to new players or players who want to try this mode. Your Gankers Mode is back. Go enjoy.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Tick tock, tick tock... Another NA server falls to medium Sorrows Furnace(the one of the two servers that were full when BG opened btw). Meanwhile EU is moving their population upwards.

Nuuuuu SF no longer host?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Tick tock, tick tock... Another NA server falls to medium Sorrows Furnace(the one of the two servers that were full when BG opened btw). Meanwhile EU is moving their population upwards.

Nuuuuu SF no longer host?

It may still be a host. Now there are only 8 ‘non medium servers’ in NA which in turn, means that at least 4 servers will have hosts that are ‘Medium’ status.

[XenesisII.1540]

It's probable that they would be one of the med host server still since they just dropped under the high threshold and relink in probably 2.5 weeks, but diving from full to med in 2 months says their alliance probably left or stop playing. Have a friend on there but I haven't been logging on much in the last 3 weeks to ask what's going on.

[Substance E.4852]

@Mil.3562 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:A lot of dedicated players moved away from the format/game with the release of mounts.

People can kick and scream about how much they want to ride their cats and the huge surge of people who came into the mode when it launched (due to the free mount skin, not anything relevant to the mode itself), but one of the primary reasons why WvW populations have been in decline has been broken combat dynamics such as the elite specs, and mounts just dialed it to 11.

I see a lot of fake informations now that many players who like the mounts have already stopped playing or left WvW and go back to PvE. Only a handful who are still clinging onto WvW cared to defend it.

If you guys check through the history of the forum, you can see that it's always the same few forum veterans posting toxic comments and giving fake infos on how the mount killed WvW.

If you are a regular WvW players, playing WvW for hours every day over the past years, and constantly in T1 or T2 where all the actions are, Zerg fights and PPT, you will agree that powercreep and dead metas that lead to low populations every where are the only reasons why more and more players, guilds are giving up.

It has never been about the Warclaw

Please don't lie. WvWers love the Warclaw. But, gankers on the other hand, have been trying very hard to kill it since it's launch in Feb. Warclaws took away their only fun of jumping on unsuspecting players, forcing fights on support build players.

These players mostly mained non meta classes, they are not welcomed in zergs or organised group fights and hence they make the most noise in the forum, asking for nerfs and more.

Please stop spreading fake informatons to new players or players who want to try this mode. Your Gankers Mode is back. Go enjoy.

The only people who think the warclaw killed WvW are people who think WvW begins and ends with people 5v1'ing solo roamers over camps delivering supply to empty keeps and towers

Warclaw has done nothing but keep people in the game that would have quit long ago by making traversing the map that much easier