The May 11 "balance" patch is a huge condi buff in disguise

[TheBravery.9615]

And it's going to be awful.

 

(Resistance nerfed, damaging conditions will always be in effect.)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm pretty sure the biggest issue with condi's right now is the cleanses, not resistance.  

[Infusion.7149]

Most condis are a few hundred damage per stack which isn't going to power through med kit 1 spam , soothing mist if tempests, and mace auto on firebrand.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Not to mention most classes don't have that much access to resistance.

[Abyssisis.3971]

I reckon it’s actually the other way round, it’s secretly a buff to certain classes that had high uptime of retaliation to help with deal with condi spam.

[Custodio.6134]

hmmm, let´s look on the numbers (assuming they won´t change until the patch goes live): 
also, as we don´t know currently, for the following calculations let´s assume durations stay the same as they currently are
also, only looking at zerk-relevant classes for now as the synergies between classes have more impact here


resistance gets deleted out of calculation for damaging conditions
so we now have to consider the new boon "resolution" (formerly retaliation) and condition cleanses as the opposing factor to condition damage. 

resolution reduces condition damage by 33%

 

so let´s look at the classes and how resolution can get applied: 


Guardian: 
Tome of Courage: Chapter 2: Daring Challenge now grants Resolution (formerly retaliation), and as counterpart, Chapter 4: Stalwart Stand now does not affect condition damage anymore (due to the changes to resistance)

Mantra of Liberation: Now grants Resolution instead of retaliation

so in total: the Firebrand gets a slightly higher uptime of resolution because the lower Cooldown of Tome of Courage: Chapter 2: Daring Challenge compared to Chapter 4: stalwart Stand. 

==> slight nerf of condition damage due to slightly higher uptime in resolution

Engineer: 
So far, none of the changes with resolution and resistance directly affects Heal-Scrappers. 
The only thing affected is the trait: "Purity of Purpose" where we can assume to convert confusion into resolution (instead of retaliation)

==> the changes shouldn´t really affect anything regarding condition damage as the changes probably cancel out each other

Elementalist: 
the elementalist doesn´t undergo any relevant changes for Heal-Tempests regarding resolution and cleanse, so: 
==> shouldn´t affect anything here

Mesmer: 
same as elementalist: none of the changes affects relevant skills/traits for support-chronomancers
==> shouldn´t affect anything either
 

Necromancer: 
increased duration of torment from 3 seconds to 5 seconds: sounds like a buff at first, but considering the changes on torment (damage is increased when not moving, rather than while moving) this is a huge nerf to condition damage dealt by necromancers. Included in the trait: "Insidious Interruption"
trait: "Spiteful Spirit" now grants resolution (rather than retaliation) so reduced condition damage when entering shroud -->results in a minor nerf on condition damage
==> huge nerf on condition damage due to the changes on torment (fun fact: this results in the opposite of what ANet wanted to achieve, as torment has  been one of the strongest damaging conditions in WvW)

Revenant: 
also has currently no source of retaliation, thus will also not be affected by the changes to resistance and resolution

Warrior: 
Call of Valor: due to the changes to resistance, no longer reduces condition damage
Spiked Armor: now grants resolution, resulting in higher damage reduction overall (traited damage reduction and resolution condition damage reduction)
Roaring Reveille: no longer rends damaging conditions ineffective

==> buff on incoming condition damage due to the changes to retaliation and resistance

so, summing up: 
we have a nerf on incoming condition damage due to the changes on guardians and necromancers and an increase of incoming condition damage on warriors. So, overall we could say, due to the changes on torment (that one damaging condition that was most relevant for condi-damage so far) condi gets even more worse than it currently is (not only due to the damage numbers, resolution applications, but also because of the engineer-trait "purity of purpose" still existing unchanged). 

Unless any damage numbers and scalings get changed, the upcoming changes may slightly increase condition damage dealt (because due to the changes on resistance, as now there is no more boon that fully negates condition damage), but it is currently impossible to tell if the changes on resistance/retaliation increase condition damage enough to overwhelm the increased uptime of damage reductions that got more accessible overall

Edited May 10, 2021 by Custodio.6134
forgot to take condi-damage reduction on resolution and removed condi negation on resistance into account

[reddie.5861]

what buff? they didnt change cleanses so straight up nerf to condi when comes to blob play.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

It's hard to say what will happen. But my opinion is that we will see at least, condition comps being played or at least experimented with, like we saw with the February Nerf. Condition Zergs were really terrifying and to deal with them you needed at least 2 scrappers per party, which is pretty heavy investment in just dealing with conditions.

 

People reverted back to power eventually because the burst damage from power was instant, while the burst damage from condition always had a delay, which gave condition cleansers time to cleanse those conditions. Comps might change, but I believe the same reversion will happen again, in which it is this delay time that really helps nullify condition bombs. 

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

As a condi engineer, I only expect to fight better against one particular type of "impossible-on-this-build" enemy - condi revs built for near condi immunity. Especially with the double nerf to torment.

 

Most relies on cleanses, not resistance. So overall, little will change.

 

Power will still reign supreme above 1v1 due to exponential damage stacking and zergs throwing out 100 cleanses a second while people will still cry on the forums that condi is OP.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[XenesisII.1540]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

hmmm, let´s look on the numbers (assuming they won´t change until the patch goes live): 
also, as we don´t know currently, for the following calculations let´s assume durations stay the same as they currently are
also, only looking at zerk-relevant classes for now as the synergies between classes have more impact here


resistance gets deleted out of calculation for damaging conditions
so we now have to consider the new boon "resolution" (formerly retaliation) and condition cleanses as the opposing factor to condition damage. 

resolution reduces condition damage by 33%

 

so let´s look at the classes and how resolution can get applied: 


Guardian: 
Tome of Courage: Chapter 2: Daring Challenge now grants Resolution (formerly retaliation), and as counterpart, Chapter 4: Stalwart Stand now does not affect condition damage anymore (due to the changes to resistance)

Mantra of Liberation: Now grants Resolution instead of retaliation

so in total: the Firebrand gets a slightly higher uptime of resolution because the lower Cooldown of Tome of Courage: Chapter 2: Daring Challenge compared to Chapter 4: stalwart Stand. 

==> slight nerf of condition damage due to slightly higher uptime in resolution

Engineer: 
So far, none of the changes with resolution and resistance directly affects Heal-Scrappers. 
The only thing affected is the trait: "Purity of Purpose" where we can assume to convert confusion into resolution (instead of retaliation)

==> the changes shouldn´t really affect anything regarding condition damage as the changes probably cancel out each other

Elementalist: 
the elementalist doesn´t undergo any relevant changes for Heal-Tempests regarding resolution and cleanse, so: 
==> shouldn´t affect anything here

Mesmer: 
same as elementalist: none of the changes affects relevant skills/traits for support-chronomancers
==> shouldn´t affect anything either
 

Necromancer: 
increased duration of torment from 3 seconds to 5 seconds: sounds like a buff at first, but considering the changes on torment (damage is increased when not moving, rather than while moving) this is a huge nerf to condition damage dealt by necromancers. Included in the trait: "Insidious Interruption"
trait: "Spiteful Spirit" now grants resolution (rather than retaliation) so reduced condition damage when entering shroud -->results in a minor nerf on condition damage
==> huge nerf on condition damage due to the changes on torment (fun fact: this results in the opposite of what ANet wanted to achieve, as torment has  been one of the strongest damaging conditions in WvW)

Revenant: 
also has currently no source of retaliation, thus will also not be affected by the changes to resistance and resolution

Warrior: 
Call of Valor: due to the changes to resistance, no longer reduces condition damage
Spiked Armor: now grants resolution, resulting in higher damage reduction overall (traited damage reduction and resolution condition damage reduction)
Roaring Reveille: no longer rends damaging conditions ineffective

==> buff on incoming condition damage due to the changes to retaliation and resistance

so, summing up: 
we have a nerf on incoming condition damage due to the changes on guardians and necromancers and an increase of incoming condition damage on warriors. So, overall we could say, due to the changes on torment (that one damaging condition that was most relevant for condi-damage so far) condi gets even more worse than it currently is (not only due to the damage numbers, resolution applications, but also because of the engineer-trait "purity of purpose" still existing unchanged). 

Unless any damage numbers and scalings get changed, the upcoming changes may slightly increase condition damage dealt (because due to the changes on resistance, as now there is no more boon that fully negates condition damage), but it is currently impossible to tell if the changes on resistance/retaliation increase condition damage enough to overwhelm the increased uptime of damage reductions that got more accessible overall

Revenant has access to Retaliation...

Retaliation - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

[Jski.6180]

For some classes it will be a condi nerf and for others it will be a condi buff it realty dependents if you have the new boon or not also if your an azern or not. They need to rethink how this boon is placed on all of the classes and even rune set much like protection is because right now retaliation is not an def boon but more of an add on boon to effects.

[Custodio.6134]

15 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Revenant has access to Retaliation...

Retaliation - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

oh, i missed that one. but tbh: you don´t get much uptime from it, and this doesn´t affect any allies

[jul.7602]

It's a massive nerf. Resistance uptime, even for a comped group was often less than 20% according boon table. Resolution/retal uptime is upwards of 90%. Condition daamge, gets cut by 1/3, condi bursts are largely eliminated by constant cleansing anyway. 

[hobotnicax.7918]

8 minutes ago, jul.7602 said:

It's a massive nerf. Resistance uptime, even for a comped group was often less than 20% according boon table. Resolution/retal uptime is upwards of 90%. Condition daamge, gets cut by 1/3, condi bursts are largely eliminated by constant cleansing anyway. 

It would be great if this were true, so people stop playing condi bunker in WvW and play something less forgiving - like power builds.

I don't think condi builds will get that much of a nerf, people might negate a few ticks by 33% that's it. Condition damage should be an additional damage source to a less power focused build, not the main source of damage as it is.  Condi needs to be nerfed to the point where soft cc (cripple, chill, immo, slow) and conditions like poison, weakness, blind become important again. And at the same time, cleansing needs to be nerfed as well.

No more of this 10+ stack insta 3-4k tick BS that some try to defend on here. Or simply cap condi tick dmg to 1k per type of condition on players. It would mix up the meta, build diversity more than other Anet "balance" patches...

[Svarty.8019]

22 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

As a condi engineer, I only expect to fight better against one particular type of "impossible-on-this-build" enemy - condi revs built for near condi immunity. Especially with the double nerf to torment.

 

Most relies on cleanses, not resistance. So overall, little will change.

 

Power will still reign supreme above 1v1 due to exponential damage stacking and zergs throwing out 100 cleanses a second while people will still cry on the forums that condi is OP.

Covering all bases eh? Nice tictacs.

 

People here seem to believe that players are constantly spamming cleanses. I'm excited to see how true that will or won't be, but I suspect zergs will offer the former but individuals will offer the latter. Small pre-built groups might see more success, though.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Svarty.8019

[Blocki.4931]

We will see.

Ele might be back when they don't have to fear retal killing them anymore.

Cleanses have not been nerfed and are still very abundant.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

20 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

 

no non-roamerbuild has seriously room for that garbage cleansing sigil or rune stuff, just because u might accidently run about some edgy memelords with condibunkerbuilds. and even they have still to deal with power deadeyes, daredevils and sniperrangers from the most absurd angles.

 

__

 

overall: a lot of classes had retal, it will lead to minor changes on some builds. had on just a smaller fight against some 50 sized EBG cloud on my scourge about 10.000 dps output from retal alone. thats not a ton, but still quite something. however, resolution in that case would probably been pretty much useless. if anything, it gives me more time to pop my cleansing shade, yet condi basically kills by overstacking condis on you. there's builds that load u with like 50 stacks of bleeding or 10 stacks+ of burning within less than 10 seconds (i don't always check which random muppetbuild does most)

 

 

@Blocki.4931 what are u talking about?`staff ele was never gone. there's a lot of good players who crossbombed through the last years on it. its only threat are thieves and pulls basically, and retal could down it funnily if they overcommitted.

Edited May 11, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[TheBravery.9615]

Also the removal of retaliation is a massive buff for Engineer flamethrower for tagging

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, hobotnicax.7918 said:

It would be great if this were true, so people stop playing condi bunker in WvW and play something less forgiving - like power builds.

I don't think condi builds will get that much of a nerf, people might negate a few ticks by 33% that's it. Condition damage should be an additional damage source to a less power focused build, not the main source of damage as it is.  Condi needs to be nerfed to the point where soft cc (cripple, chill, immo, slow) and conditions like poison, weakness, blind become important again. And at the same time, cleansing needs to be nerfed as well.

No more of this 10+ stack insta 3-4k tick BS that some try to defend on here. Or simply cap condi tick dmg to 1k per type of condition on players. It would mix up the meta, build diversity more than other Anet "balance" patches...

 

Power is less forgiving? Maybe if boons didn't exist.  

[Heibi.4251]

The condi spamming is certainly boosted in WvW now. Dragon Banners became deadly again, btw. You might have gone a little overboard on the condi boost and lowered boon ability here ANET. Cleansers have their work out out for them now. The condi bomb is real. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Heibi.4251

[hobotnicax.7918]

17 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Power is less forgiving? Maybe if boons didn't exist.  

Like condi builds don't have boons right? You can bunker up with condi and do loads of dmg, you can't really do that with power.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, hobotnicax.7918 said:

Like condi builds don't have boons right? You can bunker up with condi and do loads of dmg, you can't really do that with power.

 

Certain classes I can see it, like Scourge with a bunch of minions.

 

In general, I've noticed condi doesn't use many boons unless they are traveling with a support.  I do think that high toughness is far less of a problem than high protection and other boon uptime though; this could be rectified if they gave more classes boon strip.  

[Aeolus.3615]

On 5/10/2021 at 1:40 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

As a condi engineer, I only expect to fight better against one particular type of "impossible-on-this-build" enemy - condi revs built for near condi immunity. Especially with the double nerf to torment.

 

Most relies on cleanses, not resistance. So overall, little will change.

 

Power will still reign supreme above 1v1 due to exponential damage stacking and zergs throwing out 100 cleanses a second while people will still cry on the forums that condi is OP.

Flammenwerfer!!!!!

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

On 5/11/2021 at 4:08 AM, Blocki.4931 said:

We will see.

Ele might be back when they don't have to fear retal killing them anymore.

Cleanses have not been nerfed and are still very abundant.

Retal is still a thing so I guess some people will be surprised, like I was, when your damage comes flying back at you still.