Marionette as an example of well balanced content in terms of difficulty

[Yggranya.5201]

5 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

It will.  Not even three hours after it going live you could already see the complaints. 
 

I just hope that if they do nerf it, they make the current version a CM and give a chance for some unique reward for beating it. 

Jesus, that was quick with the "challenge is not fun unless i can plaster my success on everyone elses face".

[BlackBullWings.2734]

5 hours ago, Shinjiko.1352 said:

You don't even see half the mechanics of some events because they get burned that fast, which is a shame. Silverwastes & Teq being prime examples of this.

Every time i see tequatl lose 25% of health with still 10s of stun remaining I die a little inside, the entire combat in between is completely skipped.

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 hour ago, Yggranya.5201 said:

Jesus, that was quick with the "challenge is not fun unless i can plaster my success on everyone elses face".

That is not what I was implying with my post. 

[Xeno.1298]

It will be premature to nerf it before they fix it. I was in a squad with Mukluk and even with coms and quite a few good players we failed every time. I don't know how often it happened but several times we ended up with only one person being ported to a platform. Trying to sustain and win a platform solo is a bit much.

[Xanadrine.4352]

anyone know as a scourge what build i should use on this fight? just wondering if standard meta raid build works or something else?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[GonzoNeo.4965]

6 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Do the public instance if you need more players.

That fine this week, but if the patch notes are true the public version disappear the next week. Only the squad version left. 

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

9 minutes ago, GonzoNeo.4965 said:

That fine this week, but if the patch notes are true the public version disappear the next week. Only the squad version left. 

 

 

Then perhaps they should leave it and have it alternate with Dragonstorm. 

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If anything there needs to be a change to make sure each platform gets at least one person, and the wardens should scale based on the number of people, so that they can be soloed if need be. They probably can now so long as people bring the right build.

Well, soloing the platform boss that can only be damaged from behind is technically possible, but i definitely would not advise it. Even many good players won't be able to pull that off.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

anyone know as a scourge what build i should use on this fight? just wondering if standard meta raid build works or something else?

It works quite well. You might want to take epi for lane trash clearing.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, BlackBullWings.2734 said:

Every time i see tequatl lose 25% of health with still 10s of stun remaining I die a little inside, the entire combat in between is completely skipped.

And yet that is the only reason why this encounter is being done at all. It was pretty much an empty zone before the patch (the megacannon damage "fix") that allowed skipping the late phases.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, soloing the platform boss that can only be damaged from behind is technically possible, but i definitely would not advise it. Even many good players won't be able to pull that off.

It worked pretty well on my DH. Moving through the bug, back and forth, while using Whirling Wrath and some traps firing, you get a decent amount of damage through before it adjusts its facing. There are plenty of builds that would struggle more than the time allows for though, so a single player on that platform is generally a good chance for failure.

[HotDelirium.7984]

I think it just needs some modifications because it seems most fails happen because of the mini bosses and not the lanes.

 

-When we beat a generator and get that Cheer/Inspire buff for the allies; i think its pretty irrelevant because all those buffs on a crap build are still pretty meaningless.

 

-Allow all the other characters who have beaten their generator to go to the other platforms. 

 

-Not everybody has the skill to solo a boss and its borderline griefing that one person failing one time can cause it all to fail. I don't love that level of reliance in group content.

[Astralporing.1957]

39 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

It worked pretty well on my DH. Moving through the bug, back and forth, while using Whirling Wrath and some traps firing, you get a decent amount of damage through before it adjusts its facing. There are plenty of builds that would struggle more than the time allows for though, so a single player on that platform is generally a good chance for failure.

Condi also works to a certain degree (although condi aplication from the front seems a bit wonky - sometimes condis do get applied even if your attack dealt 0 damage, and sometimes they don't - and obviously you don't get any on-crit effects)

 

The last boss (splitting one) is also designed for a bit more than 2 people. It can still be done with good pulling skills, but here also condi(+epi) seems to be a winning move.

 

In fact, i'd say it's quite significant that all the squads i have seen winning so far consisted mostly of scourges... I don;t think that's a sign of good design.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Zephire.8049]

18 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

-Not everybody has the skill to solo a boss and its borderline griefing that one person failing one time can cause it all to fail. I don't love that level of reliance in group content.

This is very much a risk, too. Not to mention how one person d/c'ing or losing power or having an IRL emergency (among numerous reasons why someone may not be able to do a platform within the time limit) is enough to waste the time for the 49 other people. It has less buffer room for any one person failing than raids do despite having 5 times the people.

 

That's not fun and few will do it after the public option is removed once the novelty wears off. Especially since you could down 2-3 raid bosses in the same amount of time.

[SexyMofo.8923]

This fight is poorly balanced. The saddest part is watching a teammate fail their mini boss because they suck and I can’t even help them.  So I just tell them they need to get good. 

[xianvar.6075]

I attempted it seven times yesterday -- five times in private squad (two of those were with a squad halfway made up of very proficient players and half filled with pugs because we couldn't get enough in Discord), and twice in the public instance. All five of the private squads failed. Both public instances succeeded.

Even so, I got dc'd right before/during the platform fights (first ping spike to 800/1k ms, then completely kicked to the Login screen). Thankfully that didn't matter so much bc it was the public instance. But stuff like this can happen. And if it happens in Lane 1 in a private squad, and suddenly someone has to kite-and-attack-from-behind a miniboss on their own.

 

You also can't really "train" these mechanics. Like, want to train Lane 5? Good luck getting a squad together willing to succeed on the first try each in their Lane so you can fail at the very end. Like, this is asking 40 other people to put aside 30 minutes of their day in which time they could do a lot of (way more lucrative and) fun content! I'm not saying that the Marionette sucks. I just think that compared to a lot of other stuff you can do in the game, it is not rewarding enough. And when you hear of stuff like the mechanism assigning people to platforms sending three people to the same platform before giving each platform at least one player, it doesn't _matter_ how good your team even is. You can still be screwed over by the mechanic and there's little you can do about it.

 

Don't get me wrong. I do think the squad version is ok -- I heard several different strategies (the best of them: all scourges) for how a 50-player team can succeed in this fight -- but I don't see how it will be more than incredibly niche. Like. You need to somehow scrounge up 50 players and get them to agree to a specific time, and if you're one or two people short, the content is suddenly way harder. I play on EU times. I don't see myself finding many such groups. It's one thing to get together 10 people without a schedule for raids, which are (if you know the content) much shorter than the Marionette fight and also afford you "checkpoints" so you don't need to clear the entire wing without a party wipe. But 50? Good luck with that. Which is kinda why I hope the public instance remains. Knowing "at X hour there's this content I want to do" is a much lower barrier of entry (strictly planning-wise) than "I may find a group who will do it at some point".

 

It doesn't really matter how amazing a handful of players find this content. If the majority decides it's too uninviting or the barrier of entry too high (and be it just "finding a group is almost impossible and those I do find demand killproof"), then they put a lot of work into something that not a lot of people will enjoy. And considering that was their stated mission, I am rather sad to see it fall short.

 

[Vilin.8056]

The boss is just how as I remembered it back in 2013, it reminds me how open world events used to got us frightened, not like the semi-AFK-fest it is today, you can expect the Assault of Lion's Arch to be a similar tier of difficulty.

 

While it is true that we used to have more players when this boss event happens in open world, about 1/3 of the player participated were low levels (since it's a lv 25-40 map) and we usually ends up around 3~4 players per platform, mostly ill equipped, with no elite spec, much lowered boon stack and duration. Defense was a far harder task and every fail takes a long wait for another re-loop. Yet we had map overflow after map overflow, and with all these odds players still did it with guild collaborations.

 

If anything, it reflects how bad we have become in 2021.

 

Players who reaches the Eye of North are supposed to be fully level, fully spec and experienced with all the trials of previous expansions and living stories. Yet It is truly a daunting sight that despite making past 2 expansions and many episodes of living story to reach the Eye of the North, even with all these free gives of ascended gears, our matured player base still struggles on a 2013 meta content. It proves that Anet's casual approach of open map contents offers no progression on the player side aside from a few flashy skins for the past 8 years, leaving the community vulnerable to adapt changes, and bog down all content innovations into forgettable past time chores.

 

It's getting more apparent year after year that our player base is getting too tired, too lazy, and most importantly, too old of age when comparing to 2012~2015.  Much of our younger audience has drifted away since for newer, faster paced, and more thrilling titles only to be replaced by those who joined solely looking for 2nd Life elements, if the later type of audience is what Anet's aiming at, Twisted Marionette is definitely not their cup of tea.

 

But gosh, it's so good to see this part of memory back again.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[costepj.5120]

5 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

The boss is just how as I remembered it back in 2013, it reminds me how open world events used to got us frightened, not like the semi-AFK-fest it is today, you can expect the Assault of Lion's Arch to be a similar tier of difficulty.

 

While it is true that we used to have more players when this boss event happens in open world, about 1/3 of the player participated were low levels (since it's a lv 25-40 map) and we usually ends up around 3~4 players per platform, mostly ill equipped, with no elite spec, much lowered boon stack and duration. Defense was a far harder task and every fail takes a long wait for another restart. Yet we had map overflow after map overflow, and with all these odds players still did it with guild collaborations.

 

If anything, it reflects how bad we have become in 2021.

 

Players who reaches the Eye of North are supposed to be lvl 80 and experienced with all the trials of previous expansions and living stories. Yet It is truly a daunting sight that despite making past 2 expansions and many episodes of living story to reach the Eye of the North, even with all these free gives of ascended gears, our matured player base still struggles on a 2013 meta content. It proves that Anet's casual approach of open map contents offers no progression on the player side aside from a few flashy skins for the past 8 years, leaving the community vulnerable to adapt changes, and bog down all content innovations into forgettable past time chores.

 

It's getting more apparent year after year that our player base is getting too tired, too lazy, and most importantly, too old when comparing to 2012~2015.  Much of our younger audience has drifted away since for newer, faster paced, and more thrilling titles only to be replaced by those who joined solely looking for 2nd Life elements. If this is the type of audience Anet's aiming at, Twisted Marionette is definitely not their cup of tea.

 

But kitten, it's so good to see this part of history back again.

I agree with some of what you wrote, but there was absolutely no need to go all ageist. I'm in my 50s and play with a lot of other players in that age bracket (or older), some of whom are excellent. Any small drop off in reaction times can be more than compensating by increased ability to anticipate bad stuff based on experience. For what it's worth, I found this content easier than first time round - I have better gear and a better understanding of my skills; so far I have a 100% success rate on the new Marionette event 🙂

[Vilin.8056]

14 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

I agree with some of what you wrote, but there was absolutely no need to go all ageist. I'm in my 50s and play with a lot of other players in that age bracket (or older), some of whom are excellent. Any small drop off in reaction times can be more than compensating by increased ability to anticipate bad stuff based on experience. For what it's worth, I found this content easier than first time round - I have better gear and a better understanding of my skills; so far I have a 100% success rate on the new Marionette event 🙂

Yeah I expect some reactions when I brought up the subject of Age. But scale wise much of these rants against structured combat events you do see a pattern associate with old age throughout the years. And I wanted to be as truthful as possible.

 

For what's worth, you and your friend are better than most others 🙂

Edited July 14, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Pifil.5193]

3 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Then perhaps they should leave it and have it alternate with Dragonstorm. 

They really should, it's a fun instance, definitely more fun than the first time I remember.

 

Even if they want to rotate it on a daily basis (so Dragonstorm one day, Marionette the next) that would be great.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Pifil.5193

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, soloing the platform boss that can only be damaged from behind is technically possible, but i definitely would not advise it. Even many good players won't be able to pull that off.

While true, there is the issue of some platforms ending up empty, and that is an auto fail.

[kharmin.7683]

12 hours ago, Thereon.3495 said:

I'll just add that I am a casual player, I don't raid or T4 fractal but I've been around since beta. THIS is the difficulty of content we casuals need more of.  

I'm a casual player, too, and disagree that we need more of this type of content.  At least for casual players.  Sure, keep incorporating content of this level, but don't target casual players with it.  If a casual player wants more difficult content, then T4 and raids already exist.

[Nephalem.8921]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, soloing the platform boss that can only be damaged from behind is technically possible, but i definitely would not advise it. Even many good players won't be able to pull that off.

Stuns work. Deplete breakbar -> burst works fine solo.

[ugrakarma.9416]

this "content" need moved to raid or something, at point is requiring specific, strict builds to be beat inst more "open world content".

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

It doesn't need a nerf. It does need mechanical cleanup. Players can't pick platforms and having the entire event rendered pointless due to RNG placement of players into separate arenas is not ok. The game should guarantee that it's possible to succeed if you play well, not fail you immediately because it happens to have left a required platform empty, which is completely outside of player control.

 

The fact that public instances work so much better just due to maybe 20 extra players demonstrates the issue. As soon as there is a reasonable guarantee that every platform will be filled properly the event works fine. It's still hard and can fail, you still have to learn and play well, but you no longer just fail for no reason.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Boogiepop Void.6473