Is it time to end GW2? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is it time to end GW2?

Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 1, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

In light of the layoffs, everyone wants it (the game) to not end abruptly, but what if its conclusion is right on schedule?

Think about it: spoilers we are currently facing Kralkatorrik. The Elder Dragons are more powerful than the Gods, and Kralkatorrik is the most powerful of the Elder Dragons. That makes him the most powerful character in the game. What better way to end things than to fight Kralkatorrik?

If we keep going with the game because we don’t want to say goodbye, that means they’ll drag on the story longer than it needs to go, or retcon in some new, bigger bad guy. It’ll be like WoW after finishing Wrath of the Lich King, or after we defeated Sargeras at the end of Legion.

So, this poses the question: regardless of whether or not you want to keep playing new content for as long as possible — we all want this to last — is it really in the game’s best interest to keep going? In other words, would you really rather play a mediocre, watered down Guild Wars 2 instead of just letting if end?

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Comments

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    Its not about elder dragons more powerful than the gods
    The gods feared to fight them because they knew they probably didn't had a chance against them.

    If not for our intervention Balthazar could've defeated Kralk & Primordus

    Also Kralkatorrik powerful but not the most powerful.

    We almost defeated him but he tricked us into thinking he was dead

    Anyways the story is not over yet we still have to deal with more elder dragons threats and maybe more new bad guys like how the White Mantle and the Awakened showed up.

    Tyria is never safe

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Were did you get the idea that Kralkatorrik is the most powerful dragon?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rest of us want to keep playing even if existing content. I may be playing less, but still stuff I enjoy and want to do. Plenty of story mileage as well

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Were did you get the idea that Kralkatorrik is the most powerful dragon?

    This.
    And even if so, why exactly does the next bad guy have to be more powerful? It's not all only about (magical) power.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    If there isnt an expansion in a year then i wont play much. You can only run over the same ground for so long before it becomes tedious

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    U never saw Dragonball ? There is always a stronger enemy behind the corner. Plus with Aureen who I guess will be back from the dead we get a strong partner perhaps we ourself absorb some dragon energy which could be a nice theme for the next round of specialization.

    Mesmer dragon power guardian dragon power thief dragon power each one a different dragon

    Who knows ....

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    NcSoft has a plan. For just 20 dollars you will get a weapon that kills any elder dragon, because not even Kralkatorrik can fight against the mighty curse of P2W.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    Ultimately, Primordus is the armageddon dragon.
    It will all end with him, both the story and the world.

    But in allseriousness, you want the story to end with Kralka- even though there are still three more dragons?
    Just leave kryta in pandemonium ?

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    Think about it: spoilers we are currently facing Kralkatorrik. The Elder Dragons are more powerful than the Gods, and Kralkatorrik is the most powerful of the Elder Dragons. That makes him the most powerful character in the game. What better way to end things than to fight Kralkatorrik?

    If we kill Kralkatorrik, the same thing will happen as with Zaithan and Mordremoth: Its energy and influence will be liberated and consumed by the others dragons, making them more powerful. So it's not because Kralk is the most powerful character right now that its death would bring an end to the story.

  • VanWilder.6923VanWilder.6923 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    if you don't want to play then leave, kinda getting tired of all of the bad attitudes and doom and gloom from players about the layoffs.

    This.

    @TC if you need a justification from others to quit the game, go quit. Most of us are having fun and continue playing even right now.

    Also This.

    Please stop this Blahblah

  • Ehh, what if a 4th round of guild wars and civil wars were to erupt out of cantha due to oppressive leadership from the ruling class? maybe add some gvg or something.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    one of the things that intrigues me is where this new generation of gamers take this obsession with a "big reset" of things every 3 months.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭

    A strange question, but since I play GW2 mainly because I love meta events, I couldn't care less about where the story goes - I skip it where possible.

  • Timelord.8190Timelord.8190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

  • Shep.4026Shep.4026 Member ✭✭

    Oh. My. God. I get doom sayers are always a problem, but I've played games with much less population where doom sayers get told to shove off. GW2, by population alone, is so unbefrackinlievably far away away from being shut down I'm completely bewildered by the fact that anyone could assume it is, even, no, especially in light of the layoffs.

    If you want to get a feeling of playing a game that could warrant being a doom sayer, go play swtor. Once you've realized that not even they're shutting down anytime soon, you might realize just how far away we are from it here in Tyra.

  • @Mortifera.6138 said:
    is it really in the game’s best interest to keep going? In other words, would you really rather play a mediocre, watered down Guild Wars 2 instead of just letting if end?

    Those are distinctly different questions.

    No, I don't want to play a mediocre or watered-down GW2. And yes, it's in the game's best interest to keep going because I don't think there's much danger of a drop in quality.

    The layoffs are going to have a huge impact on the culture at ANet, on the mood of the devs, and on the actual changes we see for the next 3-6 months. After that, it's up to staff and management at all levels to determine their destiny. It could turn out to be horrid, it could turn out to reinvigorate, or it could just be that this is a blip that we'll have mostly forgotten about come June 2020.

    It's way too soon to worry about, because there are at least 5-6 months of updates that mostly need polishing/finishing touches, because the harder work has already been done.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • MetalGirl.2370MetalGirl.2370 Member ✭✭✭

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. Where not much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    I know what's going on in the game, I'm playing since launch.
    My point is, people that are playing want to leave and are moaning and complaining, especially now after layoffs. So that's pushing new people away. You'd also avoid trying out a game if all you saw is "dead game" threads, what would be the point of getting into it if you thought it was "dead".
    So like I said, existing people are leaving and they make sure to complain which in process pushes other, potential players, away when they see it.
    So ofc that in the end Anet can't pay 143 salaries.
    How about we all just shut up about layoffs and support Anet. Like I said, it's their #1 priority again and it will probably get better now that ALL of them are working on it instead of just small amount of people.

    Mesmerizing

  • JDub.1530JDub.1530 Member ✭✭✭

    This is a very narrow view of storytelling. Just because an extremely powerful enemy is defeated does not mean meaningful and engaging conflicts cannot be introduced afterwards. Not to mention, dragons only represent raw power, attrition. There are other types of threats, like more cunning enemies. Or more personal conflicts. Say some entity has a vendetta against the Commander and laid out some complex revenge plot. They don't need to be powerful or threatening the end of the world. But if they study the Commander in the shadows and lay the groundwork so that by the time they strike the Commander has a mess to unravel. Joko had that potential, but he was more brazen and grandiose to stay in the shadows.

    Plus there are still 3 dragons after Kralk. Even if Kralk is subjectively the strongest, that does not mean the other 3 will be easy to defeat. Or that in doing so there aren't consequences to clean up.

  • Timelord.8190Timelord.8190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    I think it's important that people voice their opinion. Because that's shows that they care enough to at least least write something. I see games that have no more hope and is going towards a dead state without people commenting much. Cause not alot of people care if a bad game dies. It's good games that turns for the worse that get's the most negative comments. I suggest that the devs listen more to what the players say and makes content based on the players wishes. Anet isn't very transparent, and i wish they were more open about what they did to the community so the players could guide them more.

    One thing i would like to know is how many of the 400 devs were working on the side projects instead of working on GW2. If there was less than 143 devs (which is how many they have lost) working on the side project, it should mean that we get even less content than we did before. Pluss they lost alot of what seems valuable people. They have only one guy left that know how the game engine works.

  • @Timelord.8190 said:
    One thing i would like to know is how many of the 400 devs were working on the side projects instead of working on GW2. If there was less than 143 devs (which is how many they have lost) working on the side project, it should mean that we get even less content than we did before. Pluss they lost alot of what seems valuable people. They have only one guy left that know how the game engine works.

    The question can't be answered as phrased. Before laying off anyone, ANet offered everyone the opportunity to resign (with an identical severance). The only advantage to the volunteer was if they thought they could line up new work soon, thus leaving more room at ANet for their colleagues/friends who might not be in a similar situation. Apparently there were more than a few.

    Because some senior staff left from "Project GW2", that left more room in the company for less senior folks from any of the projects. (Not to mention people whose work was project agnostic, e.g. community relations, legal, HR, etc, areas that also would have seen cuts.)

    So we can only say the company lost 143 staff. We don't even know if that's 35% of 400 or 33% of 433 or... We don't know if that represents 1/3 of the budget overall. We don't know exactly what NCSOFT told ANet, whether it was "we're cutting the entire non-GW2 budgets; you decide how to make the staffing work" or if they said certain types of jobs have to go or... well we don't know much.

    tl;dr we just know that the layoffs affected everyone and everywhere.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Man I ain’t leaving before we defeat Steve bubbles.

  • Adry.7512Adry.7512 Member ✭✭

    Then please leave. I personally like the fact that other projects failed. So maybe NOW they can pay attention to the aspects of GW2 that they have been slacking majorly on.

  • reapex.8546reapex.8546 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Man I ain’t leaving before we defeat Steve bubbles.

    xD

  • "Game is outdated" and when they say that they mean "graphically outdated" gotta love graphics w!$@res huh?...

    Literally you have several hundred if not thousands playing Age of empires II right now, according to steamcharts we have actually 12k in the last hour, that's a 1998 videogame dont forget it. Then another ncsoft title, lineage 2 a 15 years old game barely manages around 5k people daily within all their retail/official servers, not counting those called "classic" servers because ncsoft applied the "nostalgia" card some months ago like WoW did so they got new players mostly "old school" people who came back to experience the 2004-2009 Lineage II, the classic servers alone gives us 12k more players that's a total of 18-19k players for Lineage 2 , at best, now people who played l2 enough knows that most of them are bots, the game had this plague since forever? so i'd say only 10k are real players the rest is just bots from major clans squishing resources, farming monsters, drops, gold and stuff to re-sell and get IRL money aka RMT real money traders something that GW2 successfully controlled and im glad they did it btw.

    Then we have WoW, runescape, elder scrolls online, blade and soul, tera online, eve online, maplestory, some are equally "outdated" in terms of graphics like GW2 but does it really matter? of course not, it just matters for people addicted to graphics settings who would rather have everything at ULTRA-TOP to enjoy the game than care for gameplay, mechanics, story, lore, audio, content and much more.

    There's no need to discuss this further, MMO's can live for decades if they are developed well enough with good content, don't believe me? look at all those old mmos, older than GW2 that still alive and with enough players around, look at mmo population website, GW2 is the No4 most populated mmorpg below WoW, runescape and final fantasy thats mind blowing, truly amazing so i think most of us are going borderline dramatic, overreacting and panicking way too much.

  • finkle.9513finkle.9513 Member ✭✭✭

    it cant end beter we get the flying mounts.. dragon mount to unlock

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    I don't know if this is a troll, it it is, sry for feeding it.

    No plz. I like to go to Cantha instead, and play for many years to come. Trying to reach 30,000 AP and hopefully 60,000 AP after many years of new adventures.
    All the bad news just makes me sad.

    ArenaNet Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Puma.3645Puma.3645 Member ✭✭✭

    No. ever seen one punch man? we could fight kralk with one punch but thus far the story has been enjoyable. you don't need the hardest enemies to make good entertainment.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's often interesting to read an OP's posting history. To see the kind of threads that they create.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭

    We should now be looking forward. I am still excited for the new Season, and for what the game will offer us.
    I also want to add that although we have lost Gaile, after last nights stream ( It was 8pm for me) I took comfort that Anet still have people such as Rubi talking to the community - even if it was hard to watch how devastated these guys are right now.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    WoW, as usual, is a bad comparison. It still boasts millions of players even after 15 years and has had 7 expansions. People often do come back for the new expansions. GW2 has only been around for 6-7 years but only had 2 expansions. Having said that, your general point is not wrong of course. People do leave all MMOs because they feel it gets stale. However, also a lot of MMOs have failed or have become very small. GW2 is doing alright compared to a lot of other MMOs but it would be delusional to say that it's doing fantastic. If that were true then there would've been no reason for the layoffs. So that begs the question whether it's better to burn out or to fade away? And I think that's sort of what this is about. Should it end on a relative high or should it be dragged out beyond its perceived expiration date? But also there I suspect opinions will vary.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    This is essentially true but the real question there is if the revenue they get from the core fanbase is enough to sustain this game for the long term. Ncsoft said that under the existing circumstances it was not. Cutting a third of the staff is significant but it also does put the game in a better position from a business point of view as it improves the cost vs revenue picture on the cost side. It also means that Ncsoft doesn't see amazing growth in GW2 for the years to come. What's tricky there is what will happen on the revenue side because that could also go down more and more. So that leads me to believe that they're opting for the fade away option.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

    This is also essentially true. In fact we know that for example it's been better at holding players than Wildstar for example. But what matters most in here is the revenue that players bring in. I don't say that as a counter to your comment but I am interested to see how the game fares revenue wise in the next year or two. The problem with a non-sub game is that active players do not automatically translate into paying customers. And I do feel that people who do spend a lot on gems may reach a point of saturation where they already have so much stuff that they really are not excited about new stuff anymore and spend less over time. That's the danger for this game with regards to banking on retention rather than new and returning players.

    So really, I do not expect GW2 to die anytime soon. I also do not expect ArenaNet to stop putting effort into the game because it literally is all they have, especially now their other projects are cancelled. One path that lies open is that indeed they focus on LS chapters only and increase their gem store monetization. That's a path that wouldn't be interesting to me personally. But as much as GW2 is not that much different as other MMOs, that also means that if it follows the usual pattern that this game will continue to become smaller and smaller. Nothing unusual or strange, but that would be the reality for GW2 as well.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    WoW, as usual, is a bad comparison. It still boasts millions of players even after 15 years and has had 7 expansions. People often do come back for the new expansions. GW2 has only been around for 6-7 years but only had 2 expansions. Having said that, your general point is not wrong of course. People do leave all MMOs because they feel it gets stale. However, also a lot of MMOs have failed or have become very small. GW2 is doing alright compared to a lot of other MMOs but it would be delusional to say that it's doing fantastic. If that were true then there would've been no reason for the layoffs. So that begs the question whether it's better to burn out or to fade away? And I think that's sort of what this is about. Should it end on a relative high or should it be dragged out beyond its perceived expiration date? But also there I suspect opinions will vary.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    This is essentially true but the real question there is if the revenue they get from the core fanbase is enough to sustain this game for the long term. Ncsoft said that under the existing circumstances it was not. Cutting a third of the staff is significant but it also does put the game in a better position from a business point of view as it improves the cost vs revenue picture on the cost side. It also means that Ncsoft doesn't see amazing growth in GW2 for the years to come. What's tricky there is what will happen on the revenue side because that could also go down more and more. So that leads me to believe that they're opting for the fade away option.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

    This is also essentially true. In fact we know that for example it's been better at holding players than Wildstar for example. But what matters most in here is the revenue that players bring in. I don't say that as a counter to your comment but I am interested to see how the game fares revenue wise in the next year or two. The problem with a non-sub game is that active players do not automatically translate into paying customers. And I do feel that people who do spend a lot on gems may reach a point of saturation where they already have so much stuff that they really are not excited about new stuff anymore and spend less over time. That's the danger for this game with regards to banking on retention rather than new and returning players.

    So really, I do not expect GW2 to die anytime soon. I also do not expect ArenaNet to stop putting effort into the game because it literally is all they have, especially now their other projects are cancelled. One path that lies open is that indeed they focus on LS chapters only and increase their gem store monetization. That's a path that wouldn't be interesting to me personally. But as much as GW2 is not that much different as other MMOs, that also means that if it follows the usual pattern that this game will continue to become smaller and smaller. Nothing unusual or strange, but that would be the reality for GW2 as well.

    I feel like a lot of what you're saying is misleading. It doesn't matter how many players WoW has if it loses a higher percentage. It started higher because it started earlier, with less competition. There are exactly zero MMOs that were free to play when WoW launched. And they had the budget, after the success of Warcraft and Starcraft to advertise big. Those deep pockets go a long way. I don't recall seeing ads for any other MMO with William Shatner, or Chuck Norris or Mr. T in them on television.

    Beyond that, WoW went form 12.4 million at it's heyday to under 4 million at one point before they stopped reporting the information. Saying WoW has more players doesn't change what I've said in anyway.\

    Also your comment about the game not being financially viable. That's not what was said. They said Anet was not financially viable, because it had people working on projects that were making zero income. A lot of people were hired in the last year, and a lot of people were fired. We don't have significantly less people than we did at launch working for the company right now, That's a big deal. Plenty of MMOs have had lay offs in the past, and they're still kicking around years later. Companies often lay off people to appease stockholders. They can say anything they want, but I strongly suspect that this was done because they were down on many projects including some bad investments and stockholders want to perceive something is being done. The line from the movie The Game comes to mind. "Action is taken, confidence is restored" said by the CEO of the company firing the head of one of the companies he owes. This is what investors want to see. But there's no way NcSoft can come right out and say that. If Anet had a couple of projects which were making no incoming, thus supporting three groups of devs on one game, of course it was unsustainable, anyway. Those games needed to be released at some point. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and didn't happen.

    It's just a lot more complex than you're making it out to be here.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    WoW, as usual, is a bad comparison. It still boasts millions of players even after 15 years and has had 7 expansions. People often do come back for the new expansions. GW2 has only been around for 6-7 years but only had 2 expansions. Having said that, your general point is not wrong of course. People do leave all MMOs because they feel it gets stale. However, also a lot of MMOs have failed or have become very small. GW2 is doing alright compared to a lot of other MMOs but it would be delusional to say that it's doing fantastic. If that were true then there would've been no reason for the layoffs. So that begs the question whether it's better to burn out or to fade away? And I think that's sort of what this is about. Should it end on a relative high or should it be dragged out beyond its perceived expiration date? But also there I suspect opinions will vary.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    This is essentially true but the real question there is if the revenue they get from the core fanbase is enough to sustain this game for the long term. Ncsoft said that under the existing circumstances it was not. Cutting a third of the staff is significant but it also does put the game in a better position from a business point of view as it improves the cost vs revenue picture on the cost side. It also means that Ncsoft doesn't see amazing growth in GW2 for the years to come. What's tricky there is what will happen on the revenue side because that could also go down more and more. So that leads me to believe that they're opting for the fade away option.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

    This is also essentially true. In fact we know that for example it's been better at holding players than Wildstar for example. But what matters most in here is the revenue that players bring in. I don't say that as a counter to your comment but I am interested to see how the game fares revenue wise in the next year or two. The problem with a non-sub game is that active players do not automatically translate into paying customers. And I do feel that people who do spend a lot on gems may reach a point of saturation where they already have so much stuff that they really are not excited about new stuff anymore and spend less over time. That's the danger for this game with regards to banking on retention rather than new and returning players.

    So really, I do not expect GW2 to die anytime soon. I also do not expect ArenaNet to stop putting effort into the game because it literally is all they have, especially now their other projects are cancelled. One path that lies open is that indeed they focus on LS chapters only and increase their gem store monetization. That's a path that wouldn't be interesting to me personally. But as much as GW2 is not that much different as other MMOs, that also means that if it follows the usual pattern that this game will continue to become smaller and smaller. Nothing unusual or strange, but that would be the reality for GW2 as well.

    I feel like a lot of what you're saying is misleading. It doesn't matter how many players WoW has if it loses a higher percentage. It started higher because it started earlier, with less competition. There are exactly zero MMOs that were free to play when WoW launched. And they had the budget, after the success of Warcraft and Starcraft to advertise big. Those deep pockets go a long way. I don't recall seeing ads for any other MMO with William Shatner, or Chuck Norris or Mr. T in them on television.

    It's not misleading. For all intents and purposes WoW is the exception not the rule. What the problem is with using WoW as an example is that it has been so much more successful than any of the others that it allowed Blizzard to choose their approach more freely. They do not need to make the same type of choices as others do because they already make way more money with it than they need to keep it afloat. It is a COMPLETELY different ball game if you get in a groove where you will make a big profit pretty much guaranteed or a decent profit probably. I think it's fair to state that for WoW can be said that it became a victim of its own success. It killed their next MMO they were planning because WoW was just still way too profitable.

    Beyond that, WoW went form 12.4 million at it's heyday to under 4 million at one point before they stopped reporting the information. Saying WoW has more players doesn't change what I've said in anyway.\

    It does because with 4 million players they are still the best performing MMO in the west and do not really have to make hard choices because their bottom line is in danger. Just selling an expansion is likely enough profit to keep the game going for a few years. Everything else is just bonus. That's the sort of attitude nobody else can really afford. Look at ArenaNet... they had to make the choice to forego a new expansion at least for the time being so they could do different projects. WoW doesn't have to worry about such choices because it can do what it does and be extremely profitable still.

    Also your comment about the game not being financially viable. That's not what was said. They said Anet was not financially viable, because it had people working on projects that were making zero income. A lot of people were hired in the last year, and a lot of people were fired. We don't have significantly less people than we did at launch working for the company right now, That's a big deal. Plenty of MMOs have had lay offs in the past, and they're still kicking around years later. Companies often lay off people to appease stockholders. They can say anything they want, but I strongly suspect that this was done because they were down on many projects including some bad investments and stockholders want to perceive something is being done. The line from the movie The Game comes to mind. "Action is taken, confidence is restored" said by the CEO of the company firing the head of one of the companies he owes. This is what investors want to see. But there's no way NcSoft can come right out and say that. If Anet had a couple of projects which were making no incoming, thus supporting three groups of devs on one game, of course it was unsustainable, anyway. Those games needed to be released at some point. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and didn't happen.

    Where did I say the game is not financially viable? I do not remember saying that. As for your further assumptions, they may or may not be true but they are just as much opinion without facts to back them up. Ncsoft did say that NcWest was not performing as they need it to. That affected ArenaNet and the mobile side as far as I know but ArenaNet's cuts were by far the largest. That would not be the case if their revenue was a lot higher. A lot of MMOs that are of a certain age do not have 400 people to support it or being supported by that one game if you prefer it the other way around. That's what's not viable according to Ncsoft and that's what I am referring to.

    It's just a lot more complex than you're making it out to be here.

    You know full well that it's pretty much impossible to describe every detail here. There are complexities that I recognize and/or imply that I can't even begin to write down here or it will be a wall of text to which there is no equal possibly. I won't do that. In larger lines though it's a simple reality that ArenaNet suffered a massive amount of layoffs and had to cancel their other projects. If indeed GW2 was a massive success that brought in lots of revenue then their staffing would be a bad place to cut. As it stands GW2 has being doing ok but for a game of this age they have a lot of staff. More than the competition I would think. What I cannot rhyme in my head is why they increased their staff so much in recent years and cut back on GW2 at the same time. We know that because it has been said out loud that after PoF they basically handed over GW2 to the LS teams and we know for a fact that it was said also that they at least postponed expansions. That much is known. So that means that ArenaNet had a large portion of their staff working on projects that were costing money and not making any. So when Ncsoft decided it need to cut costs, that instantly becomes the first and best place to cut a lot of the "fat" away. Sometimes it's not more complicated than that.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    WoW, as usual, is a bad comparison. It still boasts millions of players even after 15 years and has had 7 expansions. People often do come back for the new expansions. GW2 has only been around for 6-7 years but only had 2 expansions. Having said that, your general point is not wrong of course. People do leave all MMOs because they feel it gets stale. However, also a lot of MMOs have failed or have become very small. GW2 is doing alright compared to a lot of other MMOs but it would be delusional to say that it's doing fantastic. If that were true then there would've been no reason for the layoffs. So that begs the question whether it's better to burn out or to fade away? And I think that's sort of what this is about. Should it end on a relative high or should it be dragged out beyond its perceived expiration date? But also there I suspect opinions will vary.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    This is essentially true but the real question there is if the revenue they get from the core fanbase is enough to sustain this game for the long term. Ncsoft said that under the existing circumstances it was not. Cutting a third of the staff is significant but it also does put the game in a better position from a business point of view as it improves the cost vs revenue picture on the cost side. It also means that Ncsoft doesn't see amazing growth in GW2 for the years to come. What's tricky there is what will happen on the revenue side because that could also go down more and more. So that leads me to believe that they're opting for the fade away option.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

    This is also essentially true. In fact we know that for example it's been better at holding players than Wildstar for example. But what matters most in here is the revenue that players bring in. I don't say that as a counter to your comment but I am interested to see how the game fares revenue wise in the next year or two. The problem with a non-sub game is that active players do not automatically translate into paying customers. And I do feel that people who do spend a lot on gems may reach a point of saturation where they already have so much stuff that they really are not excited about new stuff anymore and spend less over time. That's the danger for this game with regards to banking on retention rather than new and returning players.

    So really, I do not expect GW2 to die anytime soon. I also do not expect ArenaNet to stop putting effort into the game because it literally is all they have, especially now their other projects are cancelled. One path that lies open is that indeed they focus on LS chapters only and increase their gem store monetization. That's a path that wouldn't be interesting to me personally. But as much as GW2 is not that much different as other MMOs, that also means that if it follows the usual pattern that this game will continue to become smaller and smaller. Nothing unusual or strange, but that would be the reality for GW2 as well.

    I feel like a lot of what you're saying is misleading. It doesn't matter how many players WoW has if it loses a higher percentage. It started higher because it started earlier, with less competition. There are exactly zero MMOs that were free to play when WoW launched. And they had the budget, after the success of Warcraft and Starcraft to advertise big. Those deep pockets go a long way. I don't recall seeing ads for any other MMO with William Shatner, or Chuck Norris or Mr. T in them on television.

    It's not misleading. For all intents and purposes WoW is the exception not the rule. What the problem is with using WoW as an example is that it has been so much more successful than any of the others that it allowed Blizzard to choose their approach more freely. They do not need to make the same type of choices as others do because they already make way more money with it than they need to keep it afloat. It is a COMPLETELY different ball game if you get in a groove where you will make a big profit pretty much guaranteed or a decent profit probably. I think it's fair to state that for WoW can be said that it became a victim of its own success. It killed their next MMO they were planning because WoW was just still way too profitable.

    Beyond that, WoW went form 12.4 million at it's heyday to under 4 million at one point before they stopped reporting the information. Saying WoW has more players doesn't change what I've said in anyway.\

    It does because with 4 million players they are still the best performing MMO in the west and do not really have to make hard choices because their bottom line is in danger. Just selling an expansion is likely enough profit to keep the game going for a few years. Everything else is just bonus. That's the sort of attitude nobody else can really afford. Look at ArenaNet... they had to make the choice to forego a new expansion at least for the time being so they could do different projects. WoW doesn't have to worry about such choices because it can do what it does and be extremely profitable still.

    Also your comment about the game not being financially viable. That's not what was said. They said Anet was not financially viable, because it had people working on projects that were making zero income. A lot of people were hired in the last year, and a lot of people were fired. We don't have significantly less people than we did at launch working for the company right now, That's a big deal. Plenty of MMOs have had lay offs in the past, and they're still kicking around years later. Companies often lay off people to appease stockholders. They can say anything they want, but I strongly suspect that this was done because they were down on many projects including some bad investments and stockholders want to perceive something is being done. The line from the movie The Game comes to mind. "Action is taken, confidence is restored" said by the CEO of the company firing the head of one of the companies he owes. This is what investors want to see. But there's no way NcSoft can come right out and say that. If Anet had a couple of projects which were making no incoming, thus supporting three groups of devs on one game, of course it was unsustainable, anyway. Those games needed to be released at some point. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and didn't happen.

    Where did I say the game is not financially viable? I do not remember saying that. As for your further assumptions, they may or may not be true but they are just as much opinion without facts to back them up. Ncsoft did say that NcWest was not performing as they need it to. That affected ArenaNet and the mobile side as far as I know but ArenaNet's cuts were by far the largest. That would not be the case if their revenue was a lot higher. A lot of MMOs that are of a certain age do not have 400 people to support it or being supported by that one game if you prefer it the other way around. That's what's not viable according to Ncsoft and that's what I am referring to.

    It's just a lot more complex than you're making it out to be here.

    You know full well that it's pretty much impossible to describe every detail here. There are complexities that I recognize and/or imply that I can't even begin to write down here or it will be a wall of text to which there is no equal possibly. I won't do that. In larger lines though it's a simple reality that ArenaNet suffered a massive amount of layoffs and had to cancel their other projects. If indeed GW2 was a massive success that brought in lots of revenue then their staffing would be a bad place to cut. As it stands GW2 has being doing ok but for a game of this age they have a lot of staff. More than the competition I would think. What I cannot rhyme in my head is why they increased their staff so much in recent years and cut back on GW2 at the same time. We know that because it has been said out loud that after PoF they basically handed over GW2 to the LS teams and we know for a fact that it was said also that they at least postponed expansions. That much is known. So that means that ArenaNet had a large portion of their staff working on projects that were costing money and not making any. So when Ncsoft decided it need to cut costs, that instantly becomes the first and best place to cut a lot of the "fat" away. Sometimes it's not more complicated than that.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Timelord.8190 said:

    @MetalGirl.2370 said:
    People need to stop overreacting. Those who act like it's end of the world and are leaving are the reason why GW2 is doing bad.

    I think you got it wrong there. People leave cause the game has gotten stale. It's not right to blame the people for leaving or think they overreact. Anet has stopped with any thing that's interesting. Recycling old boring festival content, while adding some new sigil and a kitten rare infusion. They just add living story missions with boring worlds, and gem store updates for the most part.

    They have just given us false/empty promises to keep us interested in the game.

    Like for example a 2nd set of legendary set of weapons. Which were announced long before the first expansion and isn't even done now long after the 2nd expansion pack.
    I also remember a promise about WvW being their top priority of 2017. It wasn't much good other than reward tracks and real auto loot happened.

    That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    WoW, as usual, is a bad comparison. It still boasts millions of players even after 15 years and has had 7 expansions. People often do come back for the new expansions. GW2 has only been around for 6-7 years but only had 2 expansions. Having said that, your general point is not wrong of course. People do leave all MMOs because they feel it gets stale. However, also a lot of MMOs have failed or have become very small. GW2 is doing alright compared to a lot of other MMOs but it would be delusional to say that it's doing fantastic. If that were true then there would've been no reason for the layoffs. So that begs the question whether it's better to burn out or to fade away? And I think that's sort of what this is about. Should it end on a relative high or should it be dragged out beyond its perceived expiration date? But also there I suspect opinions will vary.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    This is essentially true but the real question there is if the revenue they get from the core fanbase is enough to sustain this game for the long term. Ncsoft said that under the existing circumstances it was not. Cutting a third of the staff is significant but it also does put the game in a better position from a business point of view as it improves the cost vs revenue picture on the cost side. It also means that Ncsoft doesn't see amazing growth in GW2 for the years to come. What's tricky there is what will happen on the revenue side because that could also go down more and more. So that leads me to believe that they're opting for the fade away option.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure.

    This is also essentially true. In fact we know that for example it's been better at holding players than Wildstar for example. But what matters most in here is the revenue that players bring in. I don't say that as a counter to your comment but I am interested to see how the game fares revenue wise in the next year or two. The problem with a non-sub game is that active players do not automatically translate into paying customers. And I do feel that people who do spend a lot on gems may reach a point of saturation where they already have so much stuff that they really are not excited about new stuff anymore and spend less over time. That's the danger for this game with regards to banking on retention rather than new and returning players.

    So really, I do not expect GW2 to die anytime soon. I also do not expect ArenaNet to stop putting effort into the game because it literally is all they have, especially now their other projects are cancelled. One path that lies open is that indeed they focus on LS chapters only and increase their gem store monetization. That's a path that wouldn't be interesting to me personally. But as much as GW2 is not that much different as other MMOs, that also means that if it follows the usual pattern that this game will continue to become smaller and smaller. Nothing unusual or strange, but that would be the reality for GW2 as well.

    I feel like a lot of what you're saying is misleading. It doesn't matter how many players WoW has if it loses a higher percentage. It started higher because it started earlier, with less competition. There are exactly zero MMOs that were free to play when WoW launched. And they had the budget, after the success of Warcraft and Starcraft to advertise big. Those deep pockets go a long way. I don't recall seeing ads for any other MMO with William Shatner, or Chuck Norris or Mr. T in them on television.

    It's not misleading. For all intents and purposes WoW is the exception not the rule. What the problem is with using WoW as an example is that it has been so much more successful than any of the others that it allowed Blizzard to choose their approach more freely. They do not need to make the same type of choices as others do because they already make way more money with it than they need to keep it afloat. It is a COMPLETELY different ball game if you get in a groove where you will make a big profit pretty much guaranteed or a decent profit probably. I think it's fair to state that for WoW can be said that it became a victim of its own success. It killed their next MMO they were planning because WoW was just still way too profitable.

    Beyond that, WoW went form 12.4 million at it's heyday to under 4 million at one point before they stopped reporting the information. Saying WoW has more players doesn't change what I've said in anyway.\

    It does because with 4 million players they are still the best performing MMO in the west and do not really have to make hard choices because their bottom line is in danger. Just selling an expansion is likely enough profit to keep the game going for a few years. Everything else is just bonus. That's the sort of attitude nobody else can really afford. Look at ArenaNet... they had to make the choice to forego a new expansion at least for the time being so they could do different projects. WoW doesn't have to worry about such choices because it can do what it does and be extremely profitable still.

    Also your comment about the game not being financially viable. That's not what was said. They said Anet was not financially viable, because it had people working on projects that were making zero income. A lot of people were hired in the last year, and a lot of people were fired. We don't have significantly less people than we did at launch working for the company right now, That's a big deal. Plenty of MMOs have had lay offs in the past, and they're still kicking around years later. Companies often lay off people to appease stockholders. They can say anything they want, but I strongly suspect that this was done because they were down on many projects including some bad investments and stockholders want to perceive something is being done. The line from the movie The Game comes to mind. "Action is taken, confidence is restored" said by the CEO of the company firing the head of one of the companies he owes. This is what investors want to see. But there's no way NcSoft can come right out and say that. If Anet had a couple of projects which were making no incoming, thus supporting three groups of devs on one game, of course it was unsustainable, anyway. Those games needed to be released at some point. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and didn't happen.

    Where did I say the game is not financially viable? I do not remember saying that. As for your further assumptions, they may or may not be true but they are just as much opinion without facts to back them up. Ncsoft did say that NcWest was not performing as they need it to. That affected ArenaNet and the mobile side as far as I know but ArenaNet's cuts were by far the largest. That would not be the case if their revenue was a lot higher. A lot of MMOs that are of a certain age do not have 400 people to support it or being supported by that one game if you prefer it the other way around. That's what's not viable according to Ncsoft and that's what I am referring to.

    It's just a lot more complex than you're making it out to be here.

    You know full well that it's pretty much impossible to describe every detail here. There are complexities that I recognize and/or imply that I can't even begin to write down here or it will be a wall of text to which there is no equal possibly. I won't do that. In larger lines though it's a simple reality that ArenaNet suffered a massive amount of layoffs and had to cancel their other projects. If indeed GW2 was a massive success that brought in lots of revenue then their staffing would be a bad place to cut. As it stands GW2 has being doing ok but for a game of this age they have a lot of staff. More than the competition I would think. What I cannot rhyme in my head is why they increased their staff so much in recent years and cut back on GW2 at the same time. We know that because it has been said out loud that after PoF they basically handed over GW2 to the LS teams and we know for a fact that it was said also that they at least postponed expansions. That much is known. So that means that ArenaNet had a large portion of their staff working on projects that were costing money and not making any. So when Ncsoft decided it need to cut costs, that instantly becomes the first and best place to cut a lot of the "fat" away. Sometimes it's not more complicated than that.

    Okay this is my original statement:

    "That's true of every single MMO on the planet. People have left WoW because it's stale too. There are exactly zero MMOs that you play for hundreds or thousands of hours that don't become stale to some people. Not relevant to the question at hand.

    There are ALSO people who play for thousands of hours for whom the game isn't stale.

    People leave MMOs for all sorts of reasons all the time. Don't try to make it like this MMO is worse or better at holding players than any other, because no one can say for sure."

    Every single thing I said here is factually true and this is what you responded to. What you said about WOW, while also true, doesn't affect what I've said at all. It doesn't matter if WoW has a billion players or a million. That's not relevant to my conversation. Someone made a blanket statement that people were leaving THIS game because the content was stale. That's true of all games. Different games are going to have different overheads and expenses and profits, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about someone saying that people are leaving this game because they feel the game is stale. And that's undoubtedly true. It's also undoubtedly true for every game.

    I'm not sure where your reply came from, since I made no claims one way or another to how many people by percentage are staying leaving. I didn't mention whether the game can afford it. It simply wasn't the conversation. What the person I was replying to said, was that people are leaving this game for reason X and I said, factually, that's true of every MMO.

    He has no numbers to back up what percentage of people are leaving for that reason. He only has his own feelings and maybe annecdotal evidence from his friends. The difference is I'm not making claims about what is or isn't happening, I'm simply saying what he claims to be happening here is pretty much happening everywhere. That people leaving a game because they've played it too much and got bored is fairly normal for games of all types, not just MMOs.

    The implication is people are leaving THIS game, because it's stale as opposed to other games I suppose which are exciting and interesting.

    In order for anything like this to matter, we'd have to know how many people are staying, how many people are leaving, and how many people are leaving for the reasons stated by the OP, as well as whether or not the game is sustainable on the people who aren't leaving. We have exactly none of this information, nor will we ever. I simply pointed out the logical fallacy in a post that I felt could be taken to imply that it happens in this game more than any other. I'm not sure how your reply to me made even a single lick of difference.

<134
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