New Race? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New Race?

With treaties with the awakened, I am thinking that the awakened would be a cool new playable race that might be up and coming but I might be behind on the times though. Thoughts?

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  • As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    Be careful what you ask for
    ANet might give it to you.

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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2019

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    This is incorrect; other MMOs have added new races halfway through the story. Usually the added race is simply locked out to that account until the player reaches that point in the story on another race, or use some kind of bypass item, avoiding the issue entirely.

    All they would need is a simple tutorial chapter to introduce the race into Living World.

    It can be done and there are solutions to it, that don't even require alot of resources, its just ArenaNet has lost their spark.

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  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    @seraph shay.6170 said:
    With treaties with the awakened, I am thinking that the awakened would be a cool new playable race that might be up and coming but I might be behind on the times though. Thoughts?

    Highly doubt that the Awakened would be a playable race at this point as the story's pretty much done with them and if they had implemented them as a race, it would probably have been done with PoF.

    Other races seem doubtful to me because they addressed the large difficulties and little payoff of adding new races. Maybe in GW3, if that is ever a thing, but probably not in GW2.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    Was this in context of their studio working on several side projects in tandem with creating the new content?

    The way I see it, they're starting to run out of avenues of new viable content. You can keep adding more mounts but soon, you get people that settle on their favorites and aren't interested in getting even more mounts except for GP or to show in LA. You can keep adding more armor that looks better and better (not likely) than the old but then people will stop buying the old and only get the new better looking stuff. I doubt a new profession will ever be introduced and elite specs roll through quite slowly and even if they pushed out more, it'd require more balancing efforts. Monetizing the story is an option but seems rather limited. New game modes?

    Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it? Or the inverse of that, if you did decide to make a new race, what sort of stuff could you put behind it that players wouldn't expect to make it more interesting and attract new spenders?

  • Kodan as a playable race please! I really like their culture and religion.

  • Just a flesh wound.3589Just a flesh wound.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2019

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    Was this in context of their studio working on several side projects in tandem with creating the new content?

    The way I see it, they're starting to run out of avenues of new viable content. You can keep adding more mounts but soon, you get people that settle on their favorites and aren't interested in getting even more mounts except for GP or to show in LA. You can keep adding more armor that looks better and better (not likely) than the old but then people will stop buying the old and only get the new better looking stuff. I doubt a new profession will ever be introduced and elite specs roll through quite slowly and even if they pushed out more, it'd require more balancing efforts. Monetizing the story is an option but seems rather limited. New game modes?

    Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it? Or the inverse of that, if you did decide to make a new race, what sort of stuff could you put behind it that players wouldn't expect to make it more interesting and attract new spenders?

    I really don’t think that new races will be the cash cow that will bring the money in. I doubt new players will buy the game just for new races (I know I never bought a game just because they made a new race). They’ll get $10 for a new char slot for all who buy one... and then what? What skins can they sell that’s specific for new races that will bring in the bucks? They’ll still be riding on their favorite mounts and still be playing on the old professions. After an initial burst of interest in armor they’ll have settled on the armor their new char will wear. They’ll still be playing on the same PvE maps, the same sPvP game and the same WvW maps their other chars on playing on, so no new money there.

    They added gliding to the game with HoT which was a good money maker for them and they added mounts to PoF, also a good money maker as they sell skins in the gemstore for both of these. Twice so far they’ve added unexpected and popular new features. I wouldn’t say so quickly that they aren’t/can’t think up a new big and popular.

    Be careful what you ask for
    ANet might give it to you.

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  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    I really don’t think that new races will be the cash cow that will bring the money in.

    Well, if they require a new character slot, they require stuff like inventory slots, bags, makeover kits, gear, time and unlocking.

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    I doubt new players will buy the game just for new races (I know I never bought a game just because they made a new race).

    Well I bought and played the game when I saw the different races, so I spent all the cash I did on the effort they put into their playable races. My anecdotal counters yours.

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    They’ll get $10 for a new char slot for all who buy one... and then what?

    That's why I asked. Then what would you think would be some good features to make them more enticing, perhaps not to specifically you but to a wider audience?

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    What skins can they sell that’s specific for new races that will bring in the bucks?

    You're thinking pretty small. I have ideas, the problem is no one ever listens to them. In fact, there's almost a concentrated effort to shut down any kind of suggestions that have a minute possibility to have a hint at maybe requiring effort to make.

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    They’ll still be riding on their favorite mounts and still be playing on the old professions. After an initial burst of interest in armor they’ll have settled on the armor their new char will wear. They’ll still be playing on the same PvE maps, the same sPvP game and the same WvW maps their other chars on playing on, so no new money there.

    So what's the difference if no new race was added and you're doing all that with the initial 5 races?

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    They added gliding to the game with HoT which was a good money maker for them and they added mounts to PoF, also a good money maker as they sell skins in the gemstore for both of these. Twice so far they’ve added unexpected and popular new features. I wouldn’t say so quickly that they aren’t/can’t think up a new big and popular.

    We'll just have to see then with the next expansion. I feel gliding was a great feature to add but I was never interested in skinning the brief action which is likely why they created another form of movement that isn't brief and more skinnable. But since we've got the ability to fly, pretty much, the whole travel feature skinning realm is pretty much covered. Rather than approach a suggestion from the perspective of "why it won't work", I usually come at it as "how can you make it work". I still feel, if their cash shop game is focused on cosmetics, there are only so many things you can do with that:

    • External Character Customization (minions, pets, personal decorated area, companions, guilds/groups)
    • Equipment Customization (armor/outfits, weapons, gliders, mounts)
    • Direct Character Customization (namely features such as hair, color, face, etc)
    • Indirect Character Customization (things like story paths, animations/emotes and voice)

    So how hard have they put into these areas? External customization has some but I can see some possible stuff they can push. Equipment customization has been done to death. Direct customization has some and I can foresee much more. Indirect has gotten very little. I feel that, with new races, you hit both direct and indirect customization, perhaps even opening the door for more options (imagine if you can choose different voiced options for each race (combat only) so all your characters with the same race/sex don't share the same voice?).

    Again, I'm not looking at this from a perspective of "that requires too many resources". I'm speaking objectively, as a customer, what options are there to spend money on and what is effectively untapped.

    There's also the option of creating other game modes to monetize but I think it's a bit in conflict with P2W to elaborate.

  • This has been on my mind lately, and I guess the thing I don't quite grasp is this.

    If they're very worried about continuity (which I can understand, speaking from the perspective of a storyteller), and they want every character to be able to experience the early story content, then it seems like they already have a low effort workaround for that particular problem. Look at the Flame Legion fractal, where we raid ascalon.

    The player character is turned into a Charr. They have the tech to change the player character for instanced content.

    Now, ideally you'd be able to select the race of the Commander, and coding that would be work. But I'd imagine that would be far less work than is involved in rigging a skeleton, creating a variety of assets for the new player model, animating it, fitting all the existing armors to it, and voicing it. Then there's building their city, cultural armors, and starting zone.

    I admit, I'm just sitting in the bleachers. But even so, from where I'm sitting, it seems like continuity errors would be the easiest thing to resolve when creating a new race, because part of the tech to do so is already here. It might not be as satisfying as a full integration into the old game world, with all the voice acting, writing, potential retconning, and map work that might be necessary. But I understand why that's prohibitively expensive and time consuming. I'd just be happy that I have the opportunity to play as a Largos at all. Setting unreachable standards is counterproductive: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

    If we're willing to bite that bullet, then I think the major challenge in the sphere of continuity is how to work a Largos or Tengu into the story, and what their relationship would be with the commander. The player character could join Dragons Watch, or the Commander could die for real and the PC could replace them. The most outlandish idea, but one that could be neat, was if the commander bought it (again) but their soul ended up trapped in the body of a member of the new race - so you get to have some interesting existential memes about two minds in one body. But my point is that I think that there are plenty of ways of solving the problem of integrating this new character.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it?

    Personal housing. They can sell house models and all kinds of interior decoration in the Gem Store. It could fund ArenaNet for the next few years, until they find something else to monetize.

    I fully expect the next expansion to have housing as a major feature. In the expansion we would be given a shack with wooden mobiliary, and ArenaNet would then sell multiple kinds of mansions at the Gem Store, charging for each table, each chair, each wall decoration, each armor stand and so on.

    How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    I actually agree with him. This game isnt p2p. Its limited on funding and most people wont get anything out of a new race since it's the same exact gameplay just with a new naked model that will be covered up by gear. I rather that fund go to new game features and maps to explore and better meta events.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it?

    Personal housing. They can sell house models and all kinds of interior decoration in the Gem Store. It could fund ArenaNet for the next few years, until they find something else to monetize.

    I fully expect the next expansion to have housing as a major feature. In the expansion we would be given a shack with wooden mobiliary, and ArenaNet would then sell multiple kinds of mansions at the Gem Store, charging for each table, each chair, each wall decoration, each armor stand and so on.

    That's a possible outcome. I'd like to hope there are enough players that would really like to kit out a personal home for others to visit and play around in. Personally, I think the playerbase is quite casual and if the cost of entry is too steep or shallow (we only barely got sittable chairs...) the outcome wouldn't be as lucrative as one might hope.

    For external customization, I personally would enjoy a customizable companion with their own story missions and small-scale PvE content to incorporate them in (like 3-man dungeons for you, a friend and the companion). Would be even better if those companions could be chosen from a larger swath of optional races like Skritt, Quagan or even villainous races like Krate or Centaur. You can even show off a companion to random people without needing to invite them to your personal housing and actually use it for stuff.

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019
    Previous Threads Regarding New Races, in these Forums

    (Partial list, see also the search function)

    PS this doesn't even include all the discussions from the archived forums, threads discussing new professions (a strongly related topic), some of the "expansion idea" threads that include a new race as a selling point, or threads covering some/all of the above.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • yoni.7015yoni.7015 Member ✭✭✭

    What would be the benefit of a new race? I have nine characters, one of each profession and I don’t want to have more characters, so I would have nothing from a new race.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nanomidgy.9180 said:
    Kodan as a playable race please! I really like their culture and religion.

    There's no reason you couldn't RP this if you really wanted. There are people in RL today that move to live with a culture of others unlike themselves for a plethora of reasons. If you really like the Kodan culture and religion, just RP that.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Grim West.3194Grim West.3194 Member ✭✭✭

    Skritt master race.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019

    I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like largos on a human base, but still unlikely.

  • robertthebard.8150robertthebard.8150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

    As we can see from https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71333/is-the-warclaw-just-a-reskinned-griffon#latest, they can't even do that, because people would complain.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    As i have said before in another thread the way i see they add a new race is to reuse skeletons and voice over, with special modulation like norn and char, from the available races and the way it can work with the story is that they will have to be added with living world map and story for everyone, ala Caithe in Season 2, or the new race is 80 level at the whole story and they get shanked in the levels cause they hit their head or something at the end of the story step. Remember that these maps and content require at around 9 months to make and the voice overs costs on top of that, so it might not be hard to make but it will take time and resources.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019

    New races can be added to the current timeline and there is no reason at all to have them linked to personal stories. Why not add the race and tie their story to the new adventures if personal story is what you want? How many people have started characters without bothering to complete the old personal story at all? The race could just be added as a stand alone based on it's current history and not have it eligible for entering the personal story and qualify as the commander moving forward in LW.
    AS far as it requiring too many resources, well we all know they were pouring the bulk of their resources as of the launch of PoF into other projects altogether so not having them today when GW2 is supposed to be their sole focus is just opinion and conjecture.
    A new race does not need the entire back story it's done all the time in MMO's and GW2 doesn't need to be any different. Tengu become a playable race when we unlock an area like Dominion of Winds, or Largos when we unlock underwater realm. Hell i bet there are some people who would be willing to purchase an expansion with that theme as its sole main addition to the game, i know i would!

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Of course, ANet could limit the armor initially to a few sets, skip the voice, not worry about continuity, not have a home city for the new race.

    The home city issue is also one of the simplest solutions. Considering an expansion that moves to a new area will undoubtedly have a new hub area that acts as a nexus to the new zone paths. The challenge comes with trying to make such a city zone a place players visit often rather than just a spot for newbies to have their tutorials (because a new race would likely require some advancement in the story thus no tutorial/"starter zones" required).

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    That brings us to the other major limiting factor. It turns out that only a fraction of players spends any significant time with non-human races. Some people only play humans, some people mostly play humans. Of those who do, only a fraction do so just for the chance to play a new race. For many, the above things are critical features.

    I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Some people have suggested that there are ways to monetize a new race. And there are. ANet could charge for an unlock or charge more for a character slot for a new race. They could create player housing, that would include gem shop decorations. The forums have been filled with such ideas for ages.

    Yes, at this point, I feel Anet needs to start getting the ball rolling on monetizing newer game additions. New races is just one possibility. Build template slots, maybe a custom appearance template. I personally believe they can't keep making mount skins, glider skins, weapon skins, mini-pets and outfits and keep up their profits.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    The problem is that this assumes that ANet has never considered any of it. If we presume that they know their business (and we have good cause to, since they've been making money off of RPGs for what amounts to forever in their industry), then we have to presume that they have considered all of this and can't make the math work. They know that a new race is a huge selling point for expansions, they know that a substantial fraction of the minority who loves new races would spend anything they can for it. And despite that, they still think this is overall a financial drain.

    Of course, we could presume that they don't know their business (and we have some cause to doubt). We'd then have to assume that it has never occurred to them to try any of these income-generating ideas or cost work-arounds until posted in the forums. And then we'd have to assume that they are good enough to understand the idea, incorporate it into their business model, and turn it into a strong profit-per-cost initiative. Of course, that's not likely, since in order to get to that step, we assumed that they don't know their business very well.

    tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

    And for my contrary thoughts on new races. While I'm certain Anet knows their game better than anyone else, they wouldn't have been the first gaming studio who had too lofty of goals for the creation/sustainment of their own game. They might not be bleeding money or anything, but they certainly are the authors of their own demise with regard to implementing resource intensive features that would be just a couple development cycles for most other similar games without compounding their work. Seriously, who makes an MMO with multiple races and then completely botches the opportunity to make more? For example, I'm 100% certain Blade and Soul could easily make a new race for their game because they don't require extra voiced work and their armor system works on highly stylized outfits; FFXIV already added a new race and could add another with relative ease (although their races are rather garbage re-copies).

    While I can praise Anet for their great implementation of their diverse and unique races, I wouldn't give them the out and just push new races off as too much work. If they are truly as competent as claimed, then they knew the amount of work they were piling on their plate. The amount of work and effort involved in adding races is a testament to their work ethic, not their limit.

  • Mathias.9657Mathias.9657 Member ✭✭✭

    @nanomidgy.9180 said:
    Kodan as a playable race please! I really like their culture and religion.

    Are you aware of the permanent kodan tonic which lets you fight in combat without losing your transformation? It's one of my favs along with the mini tonic. I can't remember with LS map they are in, one of the merchants has them.

    MESMER MAIN SPOTTED

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

    I get that. I tried to make it clear I had some idea of the costs, mentioning the animating, rigging, and asset modification off-handedly. I've just often heard the objection raised that they'd have to redo the world and add a bunch of voice lines for the story and rewrite stuff, and I wanted to challenge that.

    I wish that companies would do some sort of "crowd funding" model for unprofitable but strongly desired features. For instance, I want better optimization. I also want a playable race. I will directly pay for both. If they had some part of the store where I could pledge money towards the development of certain features, and explained who they might need to hire and gave me a date range for when that feature should arrive in game, I'd be happy as a clam. Once the funding goal is met, I get charged, and they slot it in to the development roadmap or bring in new people to work on it immediately.

    It feels like QoL features and pricier features like races end up getting neglected in most games because there is no way to easily monetize them. But that's an avenue for monetization which has been around for years - it just hasn't been tried in this context.

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    New races can be added to the current timeline and there is no reason at all to have them linked to personal stories. Why not add the race and tie their story to the new adventures if personal story is what you want? How many people have started characters without bothering to complete the old personal story at all? The race could just be added as a stand alone based on it's current history and not have it eligible for entering the personal story and qualify as the commander moving forward in LW.
    AS far as it requiring too many resources, well we all know they were pouring the bulk of their resources as of the launch of PoF into other projects altogether so not having them today when GW2 is supposed to be their sole focus is just opinion and conjecture.
    A new race does not need the entire back story it's done all the time in MMO's and GW2 doesn't need to be any different. Tengu become a playable race when we unlock an area like Dominion of Winds, or Largos when we unlock underwater realm. Hell i bet there are some people who would be willing to purchase an expansion with that theme as its sole main addition to the game, i know i would!

    Do we know 'the bulk of their resources' were poured into other projects? Or could that 'just opinion and conjecture'?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Of course a new race would require a complete personal story because if it didn't people would complain that they couldn't do the PS with the new race.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • zityz.6089zityz.6089 Member ✭✭

    In the current state? No I don't think they would be adding any new races into the game. Heck they never finished the original 6th race in the base game before that came out.

    The only way I can see them adding a new race( Tengu, Largos etc) or classes is if they're making a separate continent add on I.E. Cantha/ Other part of the Tyrian world we've yet to experience in the lore yet, and adding them into the game for that story line. Then have then just merge over.

    I would like to see them release the Domain of the Winds, as a hub like the Four Winds map and use it for events, then just leave that square there, unless its planned as a Living story map years from now when we finally(if) deal with Primordius.

    I just don't have much expectation of any new races or classes from here on out.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:> Do we know 'the bulk of their resources' were poured into other projects? Or could that 'just opinion and conjecture'?

    Well according to a former dev that is exactly what happened and feel free to listen to WP video, although his name is never given. Regardless none of what I just said is beyond a fair size development group that is still left at Anet, that also is in WP's video. Frankly if the choice is never getting a new race or getting one that couldn't go back and replay 6 plus year old content i'm pretty sure a large portion of the player base with be more than happy playing it going forward, at least those in my circle of friends.

  • @A Big Guy.9702 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

    I get that. I tried to make it clear I had some idea of the costs, mentioning the animating, rigging, and asset modification off-handedly. I've just often heard the objection raised that they'd have to redo the world and add a bunch of voice lines for the story and rewrite stuff, and I wanted to challenge that.

    "Setting unreachable standards is counterproductive: the perfect is the enemy of the good" implies a belief that ANet's minimum standards for a new race is unrealistic... or that they don't really know what their fans would want for a new race.

    I wish that companies would do some sort of "crowd funding" model for unprofitable but strongly desired features.

    There are good reasons that no established company does that. It's fine for a startup, sometimes it's essential. They don't have access to long-term funding sources. But an already-successful company, especially a game company cannot afford to tie their fortunes to the fickle preferences of their fans. ANet already has stockholders breathing down its owners' necks (hence the recent layoffs); things would be worse if fans are expecting "return on investment" for something so nebulous to define as "better optimization" or "playable race." What you want isn't going to match what I want, but both of us would have reason to expect something close to our ideal, especially if we pay more than the cost of an expansion.

    Further, a company needs some sort of stability for hiring top talent. Crowd-sourcing won't guarantee there's a job for the same staff after the crowd-pleasing project ends, whereas the traditional corporate model comes as close as any of us have. Crowd-sourcing would have to account for training and distractions, for the extra HR personnel and extra computers needed to support the extra coders... and none of that can just join and disappear at will.

    And what sort of game do you think we'd have if only the richest 10% can afford to pay the amounts needed to fund their favorite projects? Without ANet having total control over the direction of the game, GW2 would be a kite in a thunderstorm, blowing whichever way the air currents are flowing.

    It feels like QoL features and pricier features like races end up getting neglected in most games because there is no way to easily monetize them. But that's an avenue for monetization which has been around for years - it just hasn't been tried in this context.

    Near as I can tell, it's been seriously considered by all sorts of people. There's a reason that top talent that left ANet in 2017|2018 went to established and traditionally-funded companies. Crowd-sourcing is a great model for start-ups, but the model is still in its infancy. Major MMOs aren't "gigs" that can gain and lose people at a whim; they take half-decades to establish, years|half-years for significant new projects, and half-years|quarters even for things like episodes.

    tl;dr successful MMOs require a lot more involvement than most of us realize.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Of course, ANet could limit the armor initially to a few sets, skip the voice, not worry about continuity, not have a home city for the new race.

    The home city issue is also one of the simplest solutions. Considering an expansion that moves to a new area will undoubtedly have a new hub area that acts as a nexus to the new zone paths. The challenge comes with trying to make such a city zone a place players visit often rather than just a spot for newbies to have their tutorials (because a new race would likely require some advancement in the story thus no tutorial/"starter zones" required).

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    That brings us to the other major limiting factor. It turns out that only a fraction of players spends any significant time with non-human races. Some people only play humans, some people mostly play humans. Of those who do, only a fraction do so just for the chance to play a new race. For many, the above things are critical features.

    I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Some people have suggested that there are ways to monetize a new race. And there are. ANet could charge for an unlock or charge more for a character slot for a new race. They could create player housing, that would include gem shop decorations. The forums have been filled with such ideas for ages.

    Yes, at this point, I feel Anet needs to start getting the ball rolling on monetizing newer game additions. New races is just one possibility. Build template slots, maybe a custom appearance template. I personally believe they can't keep making mount skins, glider skins, weapon skins, mini-pets and outfits and keep up their profits.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    The problem is that this assumes that ANet has never considered any of it. If we presume that they know their business (and we have good cause to, since they've been making money off of RPGs for what amounts to forever in their industry), then we have to presume that they have considered all of this and can't make the math work. They know that a new race is a huge selling point for expansions, they know that a substantial fraction of the minority who loves new races would spend anything they can for it. And despite that, they still think this is overall a financial drain.

    Of course, we could presume that they don't know their business (and we have some cause to doubt). We'd then have to assume that it has never occurred to them to try any of these income-generating ideas or cost work-arounds until posted in the forums. And then we'd have to assume that they are good enough to understand the idea, incorporate it into their business model, and turn it into a strong profit-per-cost initiative. Of course, that's not likely, since in order to get to that step, we assumed that they don't know their business very well.

    tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

    And for my contrary thoughts on new races. While I'm certain Anet knows their game better than anyone else, they wouldn't have been the first gaming studio who had too lofty of goals for the creation/sustainment of their own game. They might not be bleeding money or anything, but they certainly are the authors of their own demise with regard to implementing resource intensive features that would be just a couple development cycles for most other similar games without compounding their work. Seriously, who makes an MMO with multiple races and then completely botches the opportunity to make more? For example, I'm 100% certain Blade and Soul could easily make a new race for their game because they don't require extra voiced work and their armor system works on highly stylized outfits; FFXIV already added a new race and could add another with relative ease (although their races are rather garbage re-copies).

    While I can praise Anet for their great implementation of their diverse and unique races, I wouldn't give them the out and just push new races off as too much work. If they are truly as competent as claimed, then they knew the amount of work they were piling on their plate. The amount of work and effort involved in adding races is a testament to their work ethic, not their limit.

    Despite recent hiccups, GW2 is still one of the most popular MMORPGs out there and they can definitely afford making a new fully voiced race, if they wanted. Thing is that the gaming industry, as a whole these days, wants maximum profit for minimum effort/cost. Anet is no exception at this point and I don't mean the actual devs doing their best given their constraints, but the ones above them making the decisions.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

    Nah, this shows demand. Make as many new threads as you want.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:
    Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

    Then you would complain about him/her necroing the thread.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saimeren.4952 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

    Then you would complain about him/her necroing the thread.

    Ah yes, because you know all about me.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magek.4718 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

    Nah, this shows demand. Make as many new threads as you want.

    Duplicate posts are against the forum rules, so have fun with that.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    New Race is bad idea.
    there is so much place if we have free develop hands. And spent time for that ? wanna new look - take new outfit !

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    New races require tons of graphical designers' work, tons of scripting related to its new starting maps, home city and tons of efforts of maintaining this all from now on - and all this good for nothing as it brings little to the game in terms of things that really matter. I.e. gameplay. It's just cosmetics, races don't have any real differences in the way they are played.

    Or they could put all those efforts into developing a new full expansion brimmed with high-lv content, or do a complete rework of all professions, solving those atrocious power-creep issues which spoil everything. I wonder, what should they choose? That's a rhetorical question.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

    Official statistic (but old):
    https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/1c2c9GW2_Anniv_Infographic.jpg

    Not official statistic (but newer):
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics

    Humans are the most played race and about 1/3 of the characters are humans.
    The humanoid races (Human, Norn and Sylvari) combined are about 70%.

    This means that the more "unique" races (in terms of animations and armors, not talking about lore/story/aesthetics) the Asura and the Charr are less/equal to 15% each
    What we get from the data above:
    a) creating a new race with a completely unique skeleton, meaning brand new animations and armors, is not a very good idea
    b) creating a new race that uses either the Asura or Charr skeleton is also not a very worthwhile investment
    c) in order to be profitable and apply to as many people as possible and at the same time take less resources and development time, a humanoid skeleton should be used for a potential new race, this narrows down the available races to select. Less development, higher potential audience, what's not to like?

    I'm not against new races, just analyzing the data we have on what kind of race would make more sense to add.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    I will once again suggest my solution.

    Generating a side or "meanwhile" story, similar to the Seeds of Truth missions, cuts the overhead costs dramatically, and is not limited by story, continuity (much), or variable skinning. These missions would allow the players to take control of established or otherwise unique, but most importantly, singular characters. We would use their skills and abilities to accomplish a specific mission or set of missions. Setting it in a party instance means they would need, at most, 5 distinct characters, and these characters can use existing rigs, models, and animations, with minimal effort making them appear unique (which can then be implemented into the game proper, should our Commander perchance encounter them). Their skills and mechanics need only be balanced to their specific mission, and as such have significantly more freedom in their concepts.

    These could very easily be monetized, much like Guild Wars' Bonus Missions were, and like those could reward special items and skins (that might otherwise be sold in the Gem Store), while adding deeper explorations of the Lore, and at the very least adding new and different things to do. All of which are things people have been requesting ad nauseam.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

    The last time they commented on new races they said

    GW2 meet and greet

    I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

    You mean creating failed projects off to the side, while simply plugging along in this game? Yea that is about right. No it was that they were stretched thin and didn't have the manpower to do it, so again it comes back to excuses. I love this company, and the game but they reap what they sow and when those projects began to become money sinks they should of pulled back and put everyone back onto guild wars 2. They could of made a mobile game like flappy bird with rytlock in the mists, quick and easy or hell make a bejeweled knock off with flunt looking for unique crystals in the depths.

    Seriously I don't have the patience for this kitten of "Too many resources" Mounts probably took about the same amount, and they were a whopping success and everyone loves them. Tengu, Awakened, Largos, hell even the hylek? These are all things Id like to see, things I've wanted and now knowing that its not that is not possible its that they have poor management with funds/Projects and when something is CLEARLY not working they wont back off it. Im sorry I didn't want anyone to loose their job, I don't like that they HAD to loose their job. But fresh eyes, and new blood might do wonders for this game and the company as a whole because I can see the dollar signs for race packs in the cash shop. "Twenty bucks and you unlock the race of your choice to be playable, must have a level 80 on the account and the race starts at level 80." The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.

    IT can be done, it should be done but IT probably wont be.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.

    Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.

    Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Calvsie.3675Calvsie.3675 Member ✭✭✭

    New race thread? Must be Monday!
    Awakened would make terrible PCs IMO, I'd rather see bug fixes in the core game.

    “You're no help," he told the lime. This was unfair. It was only a lime; there was nothing special about it at all. It was doing the best it could.”
    ― Neil Gaiman, Anansi Boys

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.

    Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

    Don't need one here either, as they give us a level 80 scroll when we buy expansions and ALOT of people skip the personal story. If you truly need a story, why not have it be that they give us a five level story in instanced zones. Leading up to the death of a Generic commander who we meet and learn about, only to be the only one standing with them as they die against Krak. Or whatever threat we face at the time ~ This commander then hands you their will and says "Lead them, protect this world... " And dies leaving you as the commander, And at that point if you redo any of the older content its not you doing it. But merely you hearing about or learning about it from the other members of your group. Only a few lines of speech differences need to be made, perhaps with them referencing you have to live up to the commander as the plot continues.

    This basically puts you on the current road we are on, while not causing a horrid disconnect in the plot. And there you have it when you're done with the mini-story you enter the world as the commander, level 80 and ready to go on your adventure as the race of your choosing. You don't need a city, as there are PLENTY of races involved that simply were with the Pact that we recruited to help us. Who is to say a tengu didn't join the pact to help because they were tired of inaction, or that some awakened now that they are free didn't decide to follow the commander. Nothing says other wise, for either side ~ It is an open door and is more simplistic than you think. Hell not many people sit in the racial cities outside of divinity's reach, Im in hoelbrak all the time and I only see a few people in general there ~ Which is Why I go there and with all these portal scrolls leading us to instanced personal places with a mystic forge and kitten, new hub cities are becoming Irrelevant as Is.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But not everyone would level 80 their new race. I believe that a new race would need it's own PS and that many players might well expect it to have one because they would like to play through it for the race's lore and such.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly at this point levels really are a old ridiculous concept carried over from old MMOs. There meaningless and boarding and not needed for story telling nor progression. Why not start all new races off as level 80 and carry on with their personal story from there in whatever storypoint the expansion is in. This is another reason I have a problem with living story making player characters the main hero in the lore. You get issues like this. To fix this problem, in the expansion with the new race, make a NPC in the Lore the new main hero, like Uther, Jaina, Arthas, etc are in WoW. Way better story telling that way and better immersion.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We got a lot of new races with the beetle mount, and there's a fair chance we'll get a new race in SAB as well, given they allow us to mount up

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @yoni.7015 said:
    What would be the benefit of a new race? I have nine characters, one of each profession and I don’t want to have more characters, so I would have nothing from a new race.

    Thats you though, you dont speak for everyone. I wouldnt mind a new race, but it shouldnt be a human type race there are enough of those. The problem is if they add a race that isnt pretty enough and sexy enough to play fashion wars then it would be low played. If you look at the breakdown of races played in gw2 it has the same issue other games have...the majority play the pretty race with the pretty face. So i think they consider that when thinking about adding a race, would it be played enough to warrant the development.

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