Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

[Shaogin.2679]

I really hope you don't actually nerf Elixir U. If Holosmith is the problem, then nerf Holosmith and stop nerfing Scrapper and core Engineer with it.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

[Zawn.9647]

Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

• Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
• Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

"we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one" => 100% agree with the direction. im not sure if this changes might do it, but its a good try

HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

• Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
• Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

while I agree that quickness/stab is a problem in holo, i feel that their sustain is too high - because their healing skill spawns a water field that they can finish with leap+blast

also i'm afraid that this change hits core engie and scrapper too much as well... which arent meta right now

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

• Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
• Phantasmal Warlock:
  • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
  • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
• Chaos Vortex:
  • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
  • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
  • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

there changes are very welcoming since everyone HATES the clone spam - but I'm afraid that's hitting mesmer/chrono more than condi miragelike, condi mirage can shatter on you an make their illusions invul since they will dodge when the mirage dodges... you cant kill themalso, when the mirage dodges (which is the best dodge in the game already) they gain a boost to their weapon#1 skills and their clones replicates itlastly mirages can dodge while stomping, casting and rezzing and that shouldnt be a thing... every single class must spend a longer cooldown if they want to have a safe stomp, such as Shadowstep... mirages can do it with a dodge press (and they can do much more things)

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

• Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
  • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

100% agree with nerfing rampage... but are these numbers ok? i mea. its more than a 10x nerf... (i know its just on the coefficient and not on the base dmg but still)

Warrior’s CunningWe’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

• Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

spot on IMO

Staff ThiefAs mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

• Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
• Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
• Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

I wouldn't lower the Debilitating Arc initiative cost since its a damage+cripple+cures imob+evade frame.

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

I know it's impossible to please everyone and its a hard job to balance this game.I fear for other specs that will get this nerfs "splashed" into them. But I'd rather have everything a bit nerfed for a few months and have a more playable game than not nerfing problematic specs just so the other specs dont get affected and keep this toxic game state for a longer time.Even tho I'd hit Holo/Staff+Condi Thief harder, i really liked the directions you're taking to get them to a less OP state

Loved the post to gather feedback as well - you were a great addition to this game good sir. Keep up the hard work!Looking forward to see the real balance patch, hoping that most overperforming classes are brought down to the rest of the pack and a few underperforming specs can be brought up to be more on par with others such as Reaper, Engie, Renegade, DH... :)

[ButterPeanut.9746]

I do believe that core skills/traits such as Elixer U and Kinetic Battery are part of the problem and not just the pure holo kit, but these changes should be made to minimally impact core Engi and Scrapper. If possible, so something similar to what the necro F2 trait was changed to a while back, where it had a different coefficient if you had the scourge tratline equipped. For Kinetic battery, something like 2s only if you have holo traitline equipped, 5s otherwise is probably fine.

As for rampage, I do think 2.00->0.01 is a bit aggressive. Rampage needs some nerfs, but even a 2.0->1.0 change would suffice IMO. Especially considering that the other warrior elite choices are probably the worst in the entire game. Holosmith at least has Prime Light Beam, Elixer X, and Mortar Kit to choose from. All three are far superior to Elite Banner, signet of rage, and winds of disenchantment. I think bigger picture spb needs a bit of a rework to focus more on boon removal, but that's a topic for another day. IMO, if you make that drastic of a change to rampage in a single quick patch, give signet of rage some love at the same time.

[foste.3098]

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@foste.3098 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:Seems good.You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.Absolutely not! Vault was never an issue at all for the last 4+ years and it was not the issue in the staff/staff setup that won the last at.This suggestion is akin to saying warrior gs 3 could stand to have its evade frames removed because it is a fine skill that moves you a distance and is a whirl finisher; or ele dagger 3 in fire could stand to lose evasion frames because it is a fine skill without it.

The problem is indeed, not with a vault.The problem is how a staff thief connects one dodge to another and never stop.

I am fine with thieves spamming Dodge + Debilitating Arc if they need to get more defensive, plus they still have blind with Dust Strike. There is no need for Vault to be a dodge as well.The thief must decide between playing more offensive or more defensive. Vault is an offensive skill, there is no need to have dodge frames.

Except it is not fine, vault has a long obvious animation that will always get interrupted unless it has evasion frames. As it stands it has a moment of vulnerability near the end of the vault telegraphed by the big blue glow; literally no one has a issue with vault except you and your fetish for nerfing staff.What could be done to vault is they could add a red danger ring to the landing location, akin to jump shot, as judging the aoe by eye can be hard at times.

[praqtos.9035]

@foste.3098 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@foste.3098 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:Seems good.You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.Absolutely not! Vault was never an issue at all for the last 4+ years and it was not the issue in the staff/staff setup that won the last at.This suggestion is akin to saying warrior gs 3 could stand to have its evade frames removed because it is a fine skill that moves you a distance and is a whirl finisher; or ele dagger 3 in fire could stand to lose evasion frames because it is a fine skill without it.

The problem is indeed, not with a vault.The problem is how a staff thief connects one dodge to another and never stop.

I am fine with thieves spamming Dodge + Debilitating Arc if they need to get more defensive, plus they still have blind with Dust Strike. There is no need for Vault to be a dodge as well.The thief must decide between playing more offensive or more defensive. Vault is an offensive skill, there is no need to have dodge frames.

Except it is not fine, vault has a long obvious animation that will always get interrupted unless it has evasion frames. As it stands it has a moment of vulnerability near the end of the vault telegraphed by the big blue glow; literally no one has a issue with vault except you and your fetish for nerfing staff.What could be done to vault is they could add a red danger ring to the landing location, akin to jump shot, as judging the aoe by eye can be hard at times.Before claiming something like "big blue glow" its a standart for every skill and not a tell "stun me now" and not avail for people who doesnt have high settings on. Its far away from being super ezpz no effort to catch the right moment when the vault ends (instant cc makes it easier), misstimed cc might cost you 8k health or one shot you from full health (depends on the build)

[ParadoX.3124]

I love you 3000 Cal

[Lhiash.4910]

and now bring this to wvw......in wvw its a problem too.only few players play large scale.

I agree that most of the outlined problems are also plaguing the WvW small scale fights, but I wouldn't say that "only few players play large scale". In general I would love for most of the PvP oriented changes to be implemented in WvW, maybe it will revive the dying roaming scene.

[viquing.8254]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

Can you stop post biased troll post from someone who clearly have no clue about damage/CD efficiency please ?Show gear/trait in your vids please and even with that, if you don't proc multiplier you know that your prove is biased, I mean lol a 3k maul and war hundred blade with no might stack.I'm ok if you want to make again a mesmer long discussion here you can, but get ready to discuss a long time because the damage you want to nerf on your initial post isn't op in regards to CD/animation/trait investment/type of attacks in the current meta.

[witcher.3197]

@Curunen.8729 said:Probably the main problem here is Staff 4 - this is a complete waste of a skill slot since chaos armour got nerfed ages ago, and really should be reworked in some kind of additional utility for the weapon - whether control or support of some kind.

Complete waste?! Just because you don't know how to use this skill doesn't mean it's bad. It's an instant cast AoE that applies weakness and protection, effectively making you immune to burst damage and likely saving your life.

[Bazsi.2734]

There is only one thing I dislike, that's the condition application nerf on mesmer staff. The only problem on condi mirage is IH, it's the sole trait that carries any mirage condi build atm! If you take IH away, condi mirage is already useless. Further reducing the effectiveness of the condi mirage toolkit (and even core mesmer staff skills) is just going in the wrong direction.

I would suggest that IH shouldn't give evasion to clones, only the ambush attack. And maybe condis inflicted by clone ambush attacks(or clones in general if that's easier to code) could use a different(reduced) condition damage stat. Also undo some of the nerfs to condi mirage, to compensate for not being able to keep their clones alive through dodges.

Apart from that everything seems fine, which is weird because I haven't agreed with anything you guys changed since the deadeye rework. Looking forward to this patch!

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

[Curunen.8729]

@witcher.3197 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Probably the main problem here is Staff 4 - this is a complete waste of a skill slot since chaos armour got nerfed ages ago, and really should be reworked in some kind of additional utility for the weapon - whether control or support of some kind.

Complete waste?! Just because you don't know how to use this skill doesn't mean it's bad. It's an instant cast AoE that applies weakness and protection, effectively making you immune to burst damage and likely saving your life.

In this current state of the game, yes it is extremely mediocre and I don't feel I have to quantify why.

In any case I know what it does and know how to use what little it does for a number 4 skill on 30s base cooldown.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

This is just a minor patch with the one that will nerf power creep coming in future I hope?If the power creep of damage, healing, non existent cooldowns, boon spam, corrupt spam, evade spam is addressed I might return to the game.

[bravan.3876]

@Bazsi.2734 said:There is only one thing I dislike, that's the condition application nerf on mesmer staff. The only problem on condi mirage is IH, it's the sole trait that carries any mirage condi build atm! If you take IH away, condi mirage is already useless. Further reducing the effectiveness of the condi mirage toolkit (and even core mesmer staff skills) is just going in the wrong direction.

I would suggest that IH shouldn't give evasion to clones, only the ambush attack. And maybe condis inflicted by clone ambush attacks(or clones in general if that's easier to code) could use a different(reduced) condition damage stat. Also undo some of the nerfs to condi mirage, to compensate for not being able to keep their clones alive through dodges.

Apart from that everything seems fine, which is weird because I haven't agreed with anything you guys changed since the deadeye rework. Looking forward to this patch!

You can't create a spec that is build around doing something with clones and then give them nothing they can survive long enough to finish their animations. Or would you prefer to give clones passively more hp instead making the Mesmer and the opponent able to actively and mindful work with the clones to counter each other? I prefer the Mirage has to think about and care for his clones and has a harder dodge management (opportunity costs when dodging to make clones survive or attack with ambush, harder decision making, deeper tactical dodgemanagement), makes me as opponent able to force the Mirage into dodging for his clones to avoid trait procs or their death instead just give them hp for passive survival.

All suggestions in terms of IH i heard until now more killing the active and skillful gameplay part of that trait way more than the passive effects and the reason is simple: because the passive effects mostly lie in the condi ambush skills not in the trait. The only possibility to reduce the passive playstyle from Condimirage without killing the active and skillful part of IH and dumbing down Mirage is to adjust the overperforming condi ambushskills (+ normal clone autoattacks) and then compensate the Mesmer with more active condi applications through shatters. The end result is the same: less passive clone dmg, more active condi application by shatters, but without killing a trait that provides skill ceiling and an interesting active gameplay mechanic when ambushes are well designed and not op.

Means don't nerf staff skills, don't nerf IH, just nerf condi ambush and condi normal autoattacks from clones (staff, scepter, axe) and give the reduced clone dmg back to shatters (f1 and f2).

[Davirok.6318]

@Cal Cohen.3527 amazing work dude, keep it up. The rampage and holo changes are really some of the major needed changes in the game. Really looking forward to know more from your updates!

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

Hi,

• The nerf of Chaos vortex is good (it's always overperforming with all his conditions annnnd i've been "Forced" to play staff after the nerf of the axe)
• Why an other time nerfing a core skills (Elixir U), nerf HOLO (Eclipse) stability.....
• Thank you for the nerf of Warrior’s Cunning (even if it will be much appreciate and simple to do : 7% damage bonus against targets above 90% AND targets with barrier), will see for rampage.

Ty anyway for sharing the infos with us :)

[choovanski.5462]

game needs more than this. PvP will still be god awful without large sweeping nerfs to damage and sustainability over all classes.

so this better be a preparation for more nerfs, or the game is going to stay a powercreeped mess and just bleed players. changing around the positions of meta builds is not enough.

I'll be awaiting the big nerf for my reinstall. tried the game again back with the zerker rework, and it looks to still be in the same awful state. I hope to not be disappointed again, as this is a game I would dearly like to play.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

@"Ajaxx.3157" said:Nerfing Rampage into the ground is fine ( even if its way to much imo ), but it still going to be the ONLY elite to take.When is elite signet getting looked at? its SOOOO dated and worse by a long long way compared to any of the other signets that aren't elite.

An elite signet that's outdated and useless?

Guardian mains say "hold my beer"

[Marxx.5021]

Thank you - it looks promising.

[Arkantos.7460]

its good to see the changes for rampage and holo, thank youI hope to see the coalesence of ruin fix for the skill,too next patch

[Sylosi.6503]

Holo OP so nerf elixir U, etc that also effects scrapper which is mediocre and core engy which is one of the weakest cores in the game (for PvP). You can see why PvP (and WvW) are the raging success in this game that they are...

[Eurantien.4632]

Rampage nerfs are solid. Those skills will still hit decently hard for being CC's and damage should not be coming from CC Skills

Nerfing holo stab! Yay!!! Nerfing lock on reveal to not be passive reveal would be another great step.

Wanted to echo some concerns. Nerfing mirage by nerfing core mesmer seems not ideal when we know infinite horizon is the main problem. Nerfing that would mean mirage has 3 shit grandmaster traits - but so do many traitlines.

As a player who mains a non-barrier profession, seems like the nerf to tactics warrior is a bit much.

Firebrand - whatever the non support kinda jack of all trades thing that's in right now is going to be the next bandwagon. It's insanely strong and seems to have no real counters. That should be on your mind.

[Allarius.5670]

Many changes, here or historically, target specific overperforming elite specs at the cost of further lowering the performance of other options (core and other elite specs). Rather than target the specific outliers that make over performance possible (the specific elite spec, their traits, weapon skills, and utilities), skills and traits shared with core are targeted instead. This often fails to create a diverse set of options available for players, decreases build diversity, negatively impacts the games ability to self regulate through innovative build creation, and shoehorns players further into the overperforming elite spec because everything else has been even further lowered in its ability to find moderate success.

It seems balance changes too often target the overperforming specs without full or proper consideration for collateral damage to other, underperforming options. This is not about buffing the underperforming options, just making sure they don't suffer further and further drive players into only a single viable build.

With sweeping changes scheduled on the (very?) distant horizon, maybe this concern will be more properly addressed at a later date. Until then, the impact of this balance approach continues to dismantle build options. If that approach is willingly enacted now, then what real hope is there for future changes when problematic approaches to balance persist just with everything at a lower power level?

Target the outlier, minimize collateral damage, create a more robust and diverse set of options for players.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

Because now condimirage use sword :D.18 stacks of bleeding on a skill with a CD and a 2 time animation (phantasm cast + phantasm attack) is more than fine btw.

1 button = 18 bleeds

No it's really not fine but you can keep lying to yourself. :D

I'm not even going to say "just dodge"I'm not even going to say "use block/reflectI'm not even going to say "use invuln"I'm not even going to say "press your strafe key while next to a pillar"

I'm going to say there is more than sufficient counter play to this ability, so if you eat 18 stacks of bleeding, you misplayed. Let's not pretend that Condi Mirage has any other meaningful burst attack, especially with existing/proposed staff changes.