Do you feel like you're "doing it wrong" if you're not using your elite spec's associated weapon type?

[Sarm.5923]

This is something I've been chewing on in my head for a while. For transparency, I'm just a solo megacasual-type, only been with the game for three months, and have only played elementalist so far, so I probably have a fair share of ignorant biases about this topic. But I'd be interested in hearing what other people think, even if my thread comes off looking stupid.

When I was first leveling up, I didn't really have a concept of what was good or bad at the time, so I largely just leveled up as water/air/arcane with a staff and was enjoying myself. I rotated through my available weapon types a few times as I went, but I usually kept going back to staff because it just felt the most comfortable for me. I liked the slower cast times, the long range, and the overall "theme" of being a ranged caster (I didn't know about the buff-sharing murderball meta yet) so I guess it was easy for me to not know what I was missing. But after I bought the expansions and got over the initial difficulty jump of HoT, I tried out Weaver for the first time with the brand new sword the game gifted me, and I could really FEEL the difference in damage output.

But at the same time, it still felt kinda weird, if that makes sense. Up until then, I was just treating my time with the dagger as a "sometimes food" between staff upgrades, so when I switched to the sword full-time (and lacking vertical progression as an excuse to rotate through upgrades, due to being max level), I felt like my character was a bit stuck in a melee build that seemed to fit too well for it, instead of the way I was playing before.

I still feel this with Tempest, to a lesser extent. At least there I get the benefit of playing with a scepter since the warhorn's only an offhand, and I think the weapon type's pretty cool as well. But whenever I think about switching it up, I get this nagging thought of "why aren't you using everything the elite spec is giving you?" and wondering if I should even bother with foci, offhand daggers, or my old staff. I certainly don't hate my elementalist at all, but I find myself still feeling undecided with weapon styles.

Typing all of this, I realize what I'm really getting at is a question of one's gameplay priorities instead of anything regarding class or weapon balance (even if it started out this way with my impressions with ele staves). How do other people balance fun through effectiveness VS fun through mechanics?

[Dadnir.5038]

To answer the title: "No, I don't feel I'm doing it wrong when I don't use the weapon associated to the e-spec."

The e-specs weapons are optional, Herald don't need to use it's shield (if you want to heal staff will do a better job anyway), Soulbeast is seldom used with MH dagger... etc.

There are some weapons that synergize well with their e-spec but that's all there is to it. If, for whatever reason, you don't like the "feel" of a weapon, you do not have to use it. For example, I hate the feel of greatsword on my reaper and thus I just don't use GS on my reaper.

On the front of elementalist, I personally enjoy using staff with tempest more than I like using warhorn. Staff offering a near perma fire field with lava font that I enjoy whirling into with overload fire.

3 hours ago, Sarm.5923 said:

How do other people balance fun through effectiveness VS fun through mechanics?

I probably put everything in "fun through mechanic" bridging the effectivness by going as glassy as possible. That said, sometime mechanic actually increase your effectiveness.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

As long as your weapon suits your build you are fine. For example, you dont really want to use torch on power berserker, rifle on condi deadeye etc. As for elementalist, both weaver and tempest have been pushed into melee focused roles. There are ranged builds for them but they arent nearly as strong, staff in particular is often regarded as one of the weakest weapons in the game. For open world pve just play what is fun for you. If you can make staff work then keep using it.

[Dawanarth.4601]

It really depend on the weapon/espec:

meta: If the espec weapon is quite strong/meta I will mostly use it (Renegade's Shortbow)

Special: If the weapon has a special mechanic, that is tied to the Espec weapon that the core weapon don't benefit from (Holosmith's Sword, EoD: Untamed Hammer), though in some case I don't think they are worth anything in their current states

 

[Noodle Ant.1605]

theres 2 options:

1) ignore the “wrong” feeling and play whatever or however you feel like playing

2) accept the “wrong” feeling and play the it the “right” way

how to choose? it mostly depends on the sort of gamer you are. option 2) is for people who find their fun in games by optimising how they play. option 1) is for those who like to defy mainstream, experiment, or play their own way (or are lazy like me)

both are valid imo. the last anyone should want is to be playing a game only to be frustrated by some “wrong” feeling

[Kodama.6453]

Not really, except if the weapon choice is contradicting the elite spec concept in some way.

Like using double pistols with scrapper. Scrapper is entirely built around power damage, since you just generate barrier from your strike damage and damage modifiers are also power damage only. Pistols are a condition weapon with very little power damage, so it doesn't really fit well together.

I am personally just using pistol on scrapper together with a shield when using a healquickscrapper build, just because I have no other mainhand choices if I want to use the shield for it's supportive features (protection share).

But if there is no such contradiction, I don't mind using core weapons on elite specs. Am currently running aroud alot with rifle on holosmith and am having a blast (literally, am using photonic blast module).

Edited November 19, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Arheundel.6451]

I simply would feel pissed off....because the new weapon is supposed to be the main feature of the elite, the whole point of this elite system was yes to give new gameplay option but  mainly because people wanted to see different weapons on their chosen profession and if you tell me:" sorry the new elite weapon suck..."...I'd be pissed and pray that at least the elite was good enough to be played without.

It has been a case with soulbeast for me, luckily it is one of the best elites for me to play followed by tempest, spellbreaker, dragonhunter.

A case of badly designed elite would be Weaver for me, close to unplayable without the sword...poor design, poor gameplay...good only as bunker...completely awful compared to even core ele, if not for the fancy sword evades, a player should feel entitled to ask a "refund" (bunter speaking but...that is the sentiment)

So yeah a viable elite weapon is a really a great deal and becomes of secondary importance only if compared to the new gameplay option itself

Edited November 19, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It has been a case with soulbeast for me, luckily it is one of the best elites for me to play followed by tempest, spellbreaker, dragonhunter.

Soulbeast? That confuses me, as far as I know, mainhand dagger is meta for power dps, condi dps AND hybrid dps builds in PvE. It seems like an extremely potent hybrid weapon.

[Puck.3697]

Depends. If the weapon has its mechanic fixed to it (like untamed) or features only accessible with its weapon (holosmith) then yeah. 

Where as daredevil or something it'd annoy me alot less. 

This is why I feel tying mechanics to the weapon (untamed) will in the long run negatively impact the elites enjoyability. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Fueki.4753]

I don't use Longbow on Dragonhunter.

I don't use shields on Herald or Chronomancer.

I don't use Warhorn on Tempest.

I don't feel anything wrong with that.

[Panda.1967]

it really depends on the class for me...

Elementalist: Absolutely... Tempest & Weaver just don't feel right to me without their associated weapons...

Mesmer: Chronomancer, yes... Mirage, not so much... I have tried playing Chronomancer without shield but it just doesn't feel right... whereas Mirage feels just fine without Axe.

Warrior: Nope... I feel absolutely no compelling reason to use Torch when playing as Berserker... as for Spellbreaker and daggers, I havn't unlocked it yet...

Ranger: Haha! my Druid doesn't even use the druid's utility skills... of course, if I were to have built to be more of a healing Druid that might be a different story and the staff might feel more necessary... Soulbeast on the otherhand feels wrong without mainhand dagger.

Necromancer: Wait, Scourge & Reaper added new weapons? /end sarcasm... I legit don't even touch Torch or Greatsword on Necromancer... they just don't feel right...

Guardian: Why wouldn't I? Firebrand with Axe is awesome and Dragonhunter feels like half a spec without Longbow.

Revenant: Renegade isn't Renegade without a Shortbow... Herald on the otherhand doesn't HAVE to be played with shield.... but it still feels better to have it...

Thief: Honestly couldn't say... I havn't unlocked either elite spec yet...

Engineer: Holosmith is practically unplayable without Sword... and Scrapper feels best with Hammer.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Panda.1967

[Kuma.1503]

I wouldn't worry so much about using the elite spec weapons. What you want to focus on is creating synergies through your gear choice, traits, and weapons. 

The reason why elite spec weapons feel so good is because they're designed to synergize with the elite spec. if you don't know how to build craft yet, using the elite spec weapon is an easy way to guarantee you have at least some synergy in your build. 

Using Tempest as an example, You can give yourself a lot of might through overload fire, but the small range makes it hard to share with allies unless they're tightly clumped. Warhorn allows you to share all of that might to allies in a 600 unit radius with the click of a button. Even if you pick sub-optimal traits, you will still be able to be useful thanks to the synergy between Warhorn Fire 4 and overload Fire. You can do this while also providing tons of vuln uptime with lightning orb and overload air. All together this allows tempest to contritube a lot to group dps even on a support build. 

Once you start branching out to other weapons, you'll be able to find other synergies to take advantage of. For example, Tempest with a staff is able to heal and cleanse a lot more than warhorn tempest. You don't have Fire 4 for might stacking, but you gain double geyser rez synergy, plus rebound, plus constant heals with water 1, plus massive AoE cleanses with water 5 and all of your shouts. Nothing can compete with staff tempest for raw healing output. If you pair this with a scourge you have a super safe comp that can hard carry even bad pug groups. (This comp is so safe, my friend and I frequently 2 man raid bosses with it whenever we're feeling bored. You can literally face tank enrage timers)

Other examples of elite specs not using their weapon include:

Alac Mirage - Staff | Staff (Ambushes gives mirage a unique spin on every mh weapon)

Heal Scrapper - Pistol/Shield

Herald -  Sword/Sword | Staff 

Chronomancer - Sword/ X | Greatsword

Sic Em Soulbeast - Longbow | Greatsword

Fresh Air Weaver - Scepter/Focus

 

ect.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[mungozen.2379]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:05 AM, Sarm.5923 said:

Typing all of this, I realize what I'm really getting at is a question of one's gameplay priorities instead of anything regarding class or weapon balance (even if it started out this way with my impressions with ele staves). How do other people balance fun through effectiveness VS fun through mechanics?

Since I don’t care for competitive modes, I tend to pick a weapon that has interesting skills to play with and build from there. Alternately using Traits or Utility or Elite skills as a starting point. 
 

In OW PvE you can get away with a lot of jank builds that are fun and successful enough. I enjoy making this stuff ‘work’. 

[SeTect.5918]

4 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Engineer: Holosmith is practically unplayable without Sword...

*cries in condi holo* 

[LucianDK.8615]

Torch is a must for Scourges. Its the strongest offhand for necromancers that blows all other offhands out of the water.

 

I remember the beginning of hot, where Reaper greatsword was considered bad and mh dagger was considered the better weapon.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

It's weird, but I do feel like I'm doing something wrong if I don't use the Elite Spec weapon & Elite Spec skills in PvE.

I do totally get certain Elites and Weapons are focused towards a specific spec (Daredevil Staff = Power, Berserker Torch = Condi, Firebrand Axe = Hybrid) but still

[ASP.8093]

Something that may help you, specifically (an elementalist), get over this feeling:

Weaver adds new #3 skills on every weapon! Try out Earthen Synergy -> Plasma Beam. Way different from just playing core Scepter.

Edited November 23, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Buran.3796]

   If a spec provides a weapon or a set of skills which are counterproductive for the goal I have but the traitline still offers value for that goal I'll take what works or provides fun or quality of life to me and ditch what imo doesn't work. As simple as that.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Buran.3796
typos

[TwiceDead.1963]

Hell yeah I am doing it wrong! P/P is infinitely inferior compared to Rifle Deadeye but I will be damned if I have to listen to that PEWPEW noise that rifle makes for ONE more minute!

[SkinnyT.5382]

No. I usually just play what I like.
I do think that the weapons are created to synchronize well with the E-specs but it doesn't account for personal play style. I for example like to play healer on my Ele as a Tempest, but I rarely ever use the horn, because I can get more healing for the group with a staff. Same thing with the weaver were I seem to use everything but the sword, because the skill for the scepter for instance  pleases me more.
I do change however in group setting IF I feel like I'm not carrying my weight. So say I'm a Mirage in a group and the dps is low and I'm paying say scepter. I'll change to axe and adjust my traits so I can do more damage.

[Sarm.5923]

I know I hadn't replied before now but I did read everybody's thoughts and I appreciate all of the feedback. It's nice to hear that a couple other people have the same hang-up, although it's reassuring to hear that it's mainly my mindset that's holding me back and that most of you don't see anything wrong with using off-type weapons based on preference.

After giving Catalyst a tiny whirl, I think that spec might help break me of that habit too, lol.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Tempest here. You generally play tempest for the powerful overloads. Not for the warhorn.

I use the warhorn myself but builds like dagger/dagger are fine as well.

I guess that staff is a bit less popular because staff is full ranged and the overloads only work around you. But even then tempest is probably better than core ele.

[grx.8714]

Depends all what are you doing in the game.

For open world pve just play whatever set of weapons you want on which spec you want basically.

If you plan on serious fractal/raid groups there are meta builds to follow to have max dps, and so there are meta weapons, you can't use shield on herald on those scenarios or longbow on a dps dragonhunter etc.

 

For pvp and wvw the same, some weapons ar better than others, nobody roams with main dagger on power soulbeast, greatsword is just better and axe too.

 

So yeah don't feel forced to do anything if you are just casual.

[Lynx.9058]

Generally, yes.  Half the point to even using an elite spec, for me, is access to that new weapon type.  Doesn't apply on all classes, of course (I don't plan on using an axe for my firebrand, for example), but most of the time it's a big draw to the elite specs.

It makes things frustrating when the 'new' weapon for an espec doesn't seem to be any good.  I ran into this problem with hammer for catalyst during the beta tests:  I WANT to use the hammer, and hammer 3 feels thematically very connected to the catalyst's functionality, but the hammer just sucks.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lynx.9058

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

I don't think your elite spec really dictates whether you'd want to use that its weapon or not, it depends more on taking weapons that align with what your role / goal with the build will be. The elite spec your pick will typically align with what your role is, but that feels more like it will correlate with certain weapons rather than make you want to take them.

Elite specs tend to give roles and capabilities to a class that the base spec lack and so the traits, mechanics, skills, and weapon all tend to support the same role. A blatant example being Druid giving Ranger the ability to heal others, so you will basically always play it with Staff since that best supports a healing role. Necromancer doesn't have a great power build in the base spec, but Reaper allows Necromancer to fill that role while also giving it greatsword for another weapon set, which is a great power weapon. A class Guardian though already has a very good power dps build. Taking Dragonhunter doesnt suddenly allow them to do a new role though and longbow simply adds a long ranged dps option, not necessarily a better weapon set. So going DH you'd still take the still weapons as a base Guardian.

(These examples will mostly be from a PvE standpoint).

For some elites such as Berserker, Soulbeast, Weaver, Daredevil and Holosmith are all dps focused elites and have weapons with specific damage profiles (power vs condi), but all have builds for both playstyles. Berserker torch is used for condi, while power still uses axes and greatsword. Soulbeast can be played both power and condi without using dagger (a hybrid weapon anyway). Weaver can still use staff instead of sword (yea yea I know staff dps is nerfed, my point still stands). Daredevil uses daggers for condi. Holosmith can use rifle instead of sword for power, or double pistol for condi. All this specs have good damage builds that can be done without the weapon the elite gives them.

Another example would be with Firebrand. FB allows for two different roles in PvE; damage and support. You can go condi dps with Firebrand and thus axe would be the weapon you want to use because Guardian lacks a condi weapon. However if you go support / healing FB you don't necessarily have to take it. Mace is a great support weapon which you can take instead. This is still good because your elite, weapon, and overall build loadout still support the support role you are trying to fulfill.

So I'd say it more depends on what build you're going for. The elite spec's role and the weapons it gains tend to lean toward specific playstyles, but if you don't end up going that it would still be fine so long as you can fulfill your role.