Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Linken.6345 said:As blocki says join training raids or put up your own training, or new people learning lfgs.Just dont expect to kill all the bosses you train on the first day mate.

Or the dev's could just make it require way less effort and nerf it all or come out with an easier difficulty.

Wings 1-4 are easy to complete right now anyway, Since I no longer raid anymore I have heard W6 being easy aswell along with W5 aswell

[Blude.6812]

@"qwerty.8943" said:I wish I could post this anonymously....

I write this as a semi-casual, semi-serious player. I've played GW2 off-and-on since launch. I've also raided regularly, in other games, at "competent" levels, but never at top-tier / world-first / competitive levels....In those times, I loved raiding....I loved figuring out that last 1% of mechanics, or positioning. or build....that let us finally beat that "impossible" boss.....and I never gave 2 kitten about the gear! Gear was only a means to an end....to allow us to kill that boss, and have more fun.

But in GW2....I see such a huge rift between raiders and not-raiders.....a rift that grows with every update, every raid...

Even in my own guilds, when recruiting for their raid team(s)....they are only interested in "experienced" raiders. I understand their view...they did their time in PUG raids back in 2016 and 2017, learning mechanics and classes and how to build a raid team. They don't want to waste infinitely - 1 sec training others! But at the same time, when I look in LFG, every raid wants me to ping a trophy count...to prove to them that I have tons of kill experience, in every raid.. Or they want to sell me boss kills.....something I'd never, ever, consider paying for!

So what is a 'semi-casual', "competent-but-not-uber DPS", though "wants-to-learn" supposed to do?

You are in the wrong guild, find a new one that offers training and build help, but ya I agree about raids being toxic.

[geist.4126]

Introducing raids was, in my opinion, the worst thing they could do. They should have used the resources for fractals and wvw. Those were the two things that made Guild Wars 2 a big thing in the beginning. Living story is nice to have, but the majority didn't need raids which make even more balancing necessary which means more work for the GW2 team.People that really like raids play other mmorpg, GW2 had the "unique selling point" of wvw in the mmorpg market and small group pve content with scaling difficulty. Both of those were neglected for a long time when raids were introduced and so many resources wasted into legendary armor for raids and other stuff.

[LucianDK.8615]

I wholly agree, raids is pretty much exclusive content that only a tiny slice of the population will ever see. Simply wasted development time, that could be used on far more productive endeavours.

Fractals in comparision, there people no matter the skill will see all the different ones due to the multiple difficulty levels.

[biczkowski.2961]

Organized group pve content is destroying the game. But that's true for all MMOs. I decided against joining any organized pve group in this game and I'm very happy with the game. In WoW I was a mythic raider and this essentially sucked all fun out of the game. The few pve groups I joined in GW2 made me really reconsider if I wanted to do raids/fractals or not.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

ANet as a gaming studio has always had a tendency to want to please the dedicated, hardcore players. This goes back to their original game, and is still true today. GW2 was always supposed to have harder PvE content for those players. The truth is, though, that ANet struggled for a long time to offer the kind of challenge needed to please the ultra-dedicated players. Some seem to say that even raids did not go far enough.

In GW2, ANet chose to make large areas of the game accessible and (hopefully) fun for less dedicated players. This is largely due to the fact that gaming businesses make money by appealing to as broad a range of possible customers as possible. Hardcore MMO players are spread across multiple games, so there aren't enough to ensure enough revenue to make today's resource-intensive games, especially over a long time. As a result of that decision to go for broader appeal, there is a range of PvE content difficulty. That is necessary in today's market. It means, though, that it is unlikely that all content is going to be for all players -- as much as ANet might prefer otherwise..

it seems some players do not accept that there will be parts of the game that are not aimed at them. This seems to be more true of the less-dedicated than the more. The more-dedicated seem - by and large - to know and accept that there are going to be large areas of the game that are not going to offer the difficulty they prefer.

The truth -- at least as far as I can see based on observation -- is that those complaining about raids are not a huge majority of the less-dedicated players. I see that as a good thing. As a result of that observation, I have a hard time believing that raids are on the verge of doing anything other than: appealing to their targeted audience; and frustrating some subset of PvE players who are not part of the targeted audience, but who want to raid. In an ideal world, with infinite resources to build games, ANet might be able to make versions of all content for all demographics. We don't live in that world. For every attempt to address those who feel left out of raids, either raid content delivery would get slowed down, or something else would.

As it is, there are training raids. There are also easier raid encounters on which a new group can get experience. If that is not enough for those who want in but demand that any group ought to take them, then that is too bad.

[Deaths.9165]

Well the entire problem lies in the game mechanics. Basicly u can go everywhere just join in and get ur rewards. Their is one expection Raids.

U need to invest time and research. As a semi causual player. Before u go in u have to look first what raids are easy, so u can join in and get some Li. After u are familiar with the game mode u can try the harder Raids. U need proper equiment unlike in the other game modes. ANd u need to know about gamemechanics.

The Raid community of gw2 is very friendly. If u dont try to join the hardest Raids like Dhuum. Ppl will just carry u.

First when i tryed Raids. I was looking for VG groups cause it is the first boss. Very bad idea. Just try ur luck in Escort raids, so u get a feeling that about the mechanics. It is one of the easiest Raids. Still if u go in into Escort like u would go into any other game mode it is for sure a failure.

And again. Raids are easy to access but u have to inest time and research before u can move in. It is unlike the other game modes of gw2.

Next is ur charcter u choose. Their are Key positions in Raids u cant access as a beginner. Thouse ppl have to know their role. Else it is a fail.If u choose a non key position u can get carried easyl with 8 or 9 man who know what they do.

Next is u have to be honest. I was carried by alot of raiders. Even when i told them i had 0-10 Li. As long as the other raiders know u a re a noob, they can adjust themself to ur failures. If u lie to them and they trust about ur knowledge and u will do the mistakes it will end in a yell.

So if u want to raid and want to invest the time and effort and research it is an easy task to climb the Li letter.

I even endet up in commanding my own raid teams for some time. And from time to time im teaching my guild members about the basics of Raids.

The only thing u could compare Raids are Fractal CM modes. (Honestly i find cm fractals harder. They dont accept as much failures as in Raids.)

[Blocki.4931]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:The answer is: No. There is no problem, but a whole lot of people not willing to put in the required work + people being fed up with that attitude.

See: The dozen other threads on this topic.

They leave training to the training guilds and prefer to simply do quick and easy clears without having to worry about carrying other people. This rift you're seeing is nothing more than people who despise raids being very loud and people who despise casuals being very loud, endless yelling at each other.

I disagree, there is a rift growing and as raiders drop off in raiding guilds because of time, lack of interest other games they wont be replaced with anyone.

You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.

[robertthebard.8150]

Things I have seen over the years:

Players that aren't "good" enough for a difficulty wanting to run it anyway. Some of these people actually understand that they're not good enough, but they want to see it, and experience it. There are groups that will do that, my guild in DDO for one, where we had a handful of people that could solo the content, and so, running them through wasn't going to be a real detriment. There are also groups that won't. There are those that will run people down for even wanting to look in their "elite" content. Hell, I've seen a post here complaining about everyone having mounts. These people are very real, and they may even be in your guilds.

Players that will run an ad for a group, requiring gear for a top tier run, in a story mode run. Flashback to DDO, where a cleric cried for about 15 minutes because my character didn't have enough HP to run a quest on Elite. After listening to the whining for 15 minutes, I dropped group, and then did a solo run of the same quest, on Elite, and finished before they did. Then there was the DPS Sage in swtor that was crying about the gear the healers were wearing for the 20 or so minutes they were in the group before we filled. The boss had a big tell, sirens blaring, lights flashing, and then a laser that would 1 shot you. The DPS died in that every time. I guess having all the right gear didn't give them all the right skills, and the guy that prompted the first line of this paragraph, also in swtor, requiring Nightmare gear for a story mode run.

Then there are the "show me you have the achievement for this raid before we'll let you in the group. Gee, if I had the achievement, I wouldn't need to be in your group. My healer spec'd sage in swtor was denied entrance into one such raid, for that very reason. My guildies and I were chatting about it, and I decided to see just how hard it would be to solo it, and I did solo it, with one of her NPC crewmates, anyway. These kinds of people are far more common than what reading in these topics would suggest, but at the end of the day, they're not just here. They're playing any MMO with group content, and they'll raise hell if things aren't done exactly the way they think it should be done. In guild groups, I have replaced some of these players with hirelings/crew, and didn't even miss them being there, and in one instance, the raid was easier w/out him.

For all that, though, they're not the end of an MMO. They like to believe that they're crème de la crème, but sometimes, they're just sour milk. I've been in groups with some that asked me why I don't join a larger raid focused guild, and I told them the same thing I'll say here: I tend to get pretty good at games I play. I have lots of time to practice. But, I don't play for prestige, I play for fun. I'd rather wipe 3 or 4 times on a Nightmare/Elite run, and have stories to laugh about later, such as one of my guild leaders that loves to zerg, but just doesn't understand how, than stress out about who missed what in which rotation. The best solution is to find some like minded people and make your own guild. Find an entry level raid, and run it. Understand that in learning it, you're likely going to die, sometimes a lot, but learn from it, and have some fun. Laugh at the mistakes, especially your own, but learn from them. Eventually, even if you're just a raid group sized guild, you'll find that you're running them ok, and that those people that have snubbed you don't matter in the least bit. Get out there, find the people that want to learn it, and go.

[Einsof.1457]

Raid discords work magnificently.

[TexZero.7910]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

[Zaklex.6308]

If by huge segment of the GW2 population you mean the ~1% or so that visit the forums, then perhaps you're correct...otherwise nothing happening here.

[Omnicron.2467]

Want a guild invite? We run W4 and W1 on Mondays and open to teaching new people

[ArchonWing.9480]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

The people you describe in the last sentence are the real toxic players.

[Shikaru.7618]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

I had a unique experience where a group I was attempting to train on vg said that having green circles and blue circles was too confusing and they couldn't remember which circle did what so they started verbally abusing anet for "making 2 different colored circles". This was after repeated explanations and 10+ pulls. Some folks are simply not capable and that frustration manifests in crying and anger.

[Linken.6345]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

I had a unique experience where a group I was attempting to train on vg said that having green circles and blue circles was too confusing and they couldn't remember which circle did what so they started verbally abusing anet for "making 2 different colored circles". This was after repeated explanations and 10+ pulls. Some folks are simply not capable and that frustration manifests in crying and anger.

Then you simplify itbig circle=stand in itsmall circle=dont stand in it.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

Training people successfully depends as much on the trainer as it does on the trainee. Some people are bad trainees, dont listen and don't follow instructions and are unwilling to change. And some trainers are bad trainers who just dictate and dont appreciate ANY feedback and dont listen to who they are training, or even worse dont actually know themselves.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Blocki.4931 said:You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.Not all of them are coming back, though, and the new raiders do not make up the difference.See the gw2efficiency and completion rates - they are going down from raid to raid now. w6 has significantly lower completion rates than w5. Yes, they will probably go up a little with time, because this is a most recent raid, but still, w5 is the hardest raid so far, and w6 is much, much easier.And yet even the very easy first boss of w6 has only a 7.5% completion rate (compared to dhuum's 6.5% and soulles horror's 9%).

Yes, the interest is dropping.

[sigur.9453]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.Not all of them are coming back, though, and the new raiders do not make up the difference.See the gw2efficiency and completion rates - they are going down from raid to raid now. w6 has significantly lower completion rates than w5. Yes, they will probably go up a little with time, because this is a most recent raid, but still, w5 is the hardest raid so far, and w6 is much, much easier.And yet even the very easy first boss of w6 has only a 7.5% completion rate (compared to dhuum's 6.5% and soulles horror's 9%).

Yes, the interest

is

dropping.

the same thing can be also said for the living story episodes (they lose even more players in % and actuall numbers). so generally speaking its only natural in a life circle of a game to lose players anyway. sure on its peak a game will get more/same player numbers that leave, but that peak is long gone and only expansions are capable of bringing in more players then that have left over time. so while you present interesting numbers, i do not see how its a counterpoint to blocki´s comment.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Not all of them are coming back, though, and the new raiders do not make up the difference.See the gw2efficiency and completion rates - they are going down from raid to raid now. w6 has significantly lower completion rates than w5. Yes, they will probably go up a little with time, because this is a most recent raid, but still, w5 is the hardest raid so far, and w6 is much, much easier.And yet even the very easy first boss of w6 has only a 7.5% completion rate (compared to dhuum's 6.5% and soulles horror's 9%).

Yes, the interest is dropping.

The interest is dropping in general though.Compare these 7.5% with the living world achievements. They are even lower and also dropping.Its pretty normal that people are not coming back and its no surprise that fewer people will complete content. Doesn't matter if raids, fractals or living story.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@"Blocki.4931" said:

You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.

You don't have to be anti-raid to see the rift. If you don't see it that means only one of the following:

1. You play another game and you only read the GW2 Forum - OR
2. You see it very well but you don't admit this. Why? I have no idea. Because the point 3 is too drastic to consider it real:
3. Someone cannot see the rift because his/hers social skills are very low (this can affect a player even in the RL) OR the logic of that person is so twisted that even if 1+1 = 2 then 2+2 IS NOT EQUAL 4.

The rift has been created even before the first raid wing reached the game. By the developers statement the the raids are only for .... This only creates a segregation. Segregation = separation. Separation = rift. And after this statement, the entire development team acted to put it into practice. Repeating that this is a good thing.Can you see now the rift? Do you consider that the players were able to resist such a maneuver and to remain as a monolith despite of the intentional actions from ANet to separate the players in "the most dedicated / elite / ...etc" and "second hand players"?

That the efforts of ANet were channeled into a wrong direction is proved by the truth you states: "Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again". Well, this is the attitude of the elite players.If you remember, before HoT it was a looooong period with ZERO content released. With the same attitude from the "second hand" players the game should be dead by now. But they continued the play. Another difference in the approach - (another fact enlarging the rift? The attitude to the game?).

And to answer your question: "Does that surprise anybody?" - YES this is a surprise. Because ANet is wasting efforts only to cater for the few elites who only play for a limited period and leave the game until the next content release instead of focusing to keep the players who continues to play and to support the game despite some ... issues during the time. Another fact making the rift larger.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Thats why content needs to nerfed to be possible to complete by the lowest possible build in dps and support with same time as meta does. People will approve of this for challenge and difficulty is not apealing to majority of players. Make content possible for all to complete the way they want too

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.

You don't have to be anti-raid to see the rift. If you don't see it that means only one of the following:

1. You play another game and you only read the GW2 Forum - OR
2. You see it very well but you don't admit this. Why? I have no idea. Because the point 3 is too drastic to consider it real:
3. Someone
   cannot
   see the rift because his/hers social skills are very low (this can affect a player even in the RL) OR the logic of that person is so twisted that even if 1+1 = 2 then 2+2 IS NOT EQUAL 4.

Ah yes, so basically every one who disagrees with you is retarded and you are the only one correct. The best argument to make on every issue. You even split it up in 3 different but identical points.

Let me explain:

There is people who do not do any group content, they are the vast majority. None of those are even aware of raids or care about them.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

The rift has been created even before the first raid wing reached the game. By the developers statement the the raids are only for .... This only creates a segregation. Segregation = separation. Separation = rift. And after this statement, the entire development team acted to put it into practice. Repeating that this is a good thing.Can you see now the rift? Do you consider that the players were able to resist such a maneuver and to remain as a monolith despite of the intentional actions from ANet to separate the players in "the most dedicated / elite / ...etc" and "second hand players"?

No one is arguing against a segregation or rather separation between people who do raid and people who do not. It's the same for spvp and wvw, many do not engage in those game modes. To equalize rift (aka a dramatic problem) with simple separation takes a new level of genius though.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

That the efforts of ANet were channeled into a wrong direction is proved by the truth you states: "Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again". Well, this is the attitude of the elite players.If you remember, before HoT it was a looooong period with ZERO content released. With the same attitude from the "second hand" players the game should be dead by now. But they continued the play. Another difference in the approach - (another fact enlarging the rift? The attitude to the game?).

The raid team is or was, before it got merged with the fractal team, approximately 5 people strong. Everyone was praising them for what a great job they did with the little resources devoted to the content by players and Arenanet. To argue misappropriation of resources you would first have to show that the results for the minor resources spent are severely lacking. Good luck with that.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

And to answer your question: "Does that surprise anybody?" - YES this is a surprise. Because ANet is wasting efforts only to cater for the few elites who only play for a limited period and leave the game until the next content release instead of focusing to keep the players who continues to play and to support the game despite some ... issues during the time. Another fact making the rift larger.

Again, see previous statement. You are taking one of your own statements as fact (waste of resources) which clearly simply is not true. Then again, you have a very strong bias and have no issue letting that cloud your judgment.

Fun side fact: even the most devoted players (people who take the time to sign up on gw2efficiency) do not complete a majority of content from any game mode. If we really wanted to get into a xxx contest over which game mode deserves the most attention or lack of attention, raids and fractals with their small team sizes might not be the first on the block.

[yann.1946]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:

You're very anti-raid, that you're seeing a rift there doesn't surprise me. Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again. Does that surprise anybody? It shouldn't.

You don't have to be anti-raid to see the rift. If you don't see it that means only one of the following:

1. You play another game and you only read the GW2 Forum - OR
2. You see it very well but you don't admit this. Why? I have no idea. Because the point 3 is too drastic to consider it real:
3. Someone
   cannot
   see the rift because his/hers social skills are very low (this can affect a player even in the RL) OR the logic of that person is so twisted that even if 1+1 = 2 then 2+2 IS NOT EQUAL 4.

4th option their is no rift and some people see one where their is none.

5th option they don't consider this rift a problem.

The rift has been created even before the first raid wing reached the game. By the developers statement the the raids are only for .... This only creates a segregation. Segregation = separation. Separation = rift. And after this statement, the entire development team acted to put it into practice. Repeating that this is a good thing.Can you see now the rift? Do you consider that the players were able to resist such a maneuver and to remain as a monolith despite of the intentional actions from ANet to separate the players in "the most dedicated / elite / ...etc" and "second hand players"?

This rift you speak of exist also between different game modes, even different ls maps just in different variations and sizes.

That the efforts of ANet were channeled into a wrong direction is proved by the truth you states: "Interest is dropping because content doesn't release at a fast enough pace for them to care. Then they come back once the new raid is out, do it for a couple months and stop playing it again". Well, this is the attitude of the elite players.If you remember, before HoT it was a looooong period with ZERO content released. With the same attitude from the "second hand" players the game should be dead by now. But they continued the play. Another difference in the approach - (another fact enlarging the rift? The attitude to the game?).

The general population is dropping not only the elite as you call them. This is a natural in the lifespan of a game.

And to answer your question: "Does that surprise anybody?" - YES this is a surprise. Because ANet is wasting efforts only to cater for the few elites who only play for a limited period and leave the game until the next content release instead of focusing to keep the players who continues to play and to support the game despite some ... issues during the time. Another fact making the rift larger.

Have you considered that not all raiders leave after a month. And that the retention percentage of people who raid might be higher then that of those who don't?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:See the gw2efficiency and completion rates - they are going down from raid to raid now. w6 has significantly lower completion rates than w5.

Notice how episode completion rates are also going down from episode to episode, same with episode participation rates. Daybreak was started by 54% (44% finished it) while A Star to Guide Us is down to 34% (26% completed it). You can't see raid completion rates in a vacuum and say that one wing has lower rates than the other, when the rest of the game's rates are also going down.

Edit:To answer the "significantly lower" part:Hall of Chains: First boss: 9.329% - Last Boss: 6.498% - Population that finished Daybreak: 44%Mythwright Gambit: First boss: 6.972% - Last Boss: 3.992% - Population that finished A Star to Guide Us: 26%

14.7% of those that finished Daybreak killed Dhuum15.3% of those that finished A Star to Guide Us killed Quadim

In the end, Wing 6 is doing better than Wing 5, it's still new and the rates will likely increase, and that's to be expected because it's also easier.