Do we really need 9 new elite specs each expansion?

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

No, they can't even balance the skill sets they have today and it will only get worse, unless they drastically increase the balance team size which will only take away from content development. What needs to be done is they should be working to produce another race and this far down the road it doesn't need to tie into the original story line so it's more than possible. I truly feel the more elite specs they add the more damage they do to the game in general.

[Justine.6351]

Its a guess but I believe we are getting one more set of elite specs and then they will cease creating those going forward in favor of more focus on other cool systems.

[NoiseRen.2403]

I'd really prefer a new class or core trait revamps instead of new elites. There's already a balance hell in GW2. And a DeadEye revamp showed they still don't know what to do with existing ones really.

[GenghisKhan.7842]

I like the elite specs, but I vote No because the balance + powercreep problems are real enough already, and new Elite specs will further aggravate them

[starlinvf.1358]

@"Fyrebrand.4859" said:It's hard to say. I don't have anything against elite specs, but I fear they put a leash on the creativity of the devs.

• Each elite spec is mutually exclusive, and they can't combine with each other.
• They have to be designed so that they synergize with core weapons and skills, and in theory can make a viable build using any two core trait lines (or at least pay lip service to that ideal).
• Not all classes are created equally. Some may have a smaller limit on how many ways you can stretch its core traits and mechanics before you're getting desperate or jumping the shark. Some may inspire more developer passion and creativity than others. Some may just be already way too complicated to warrant opening a new can or worms and screwing with balance in untold ways in every game mode.
• They can't just make a new elite for one class, when it's ready. If one class gets a new elite, then every class has to get one. Now it's an obligation, rather than something that came naturally or felt right. This is not a good recipe for quality design.

I think I would rather see a new class altogether. Something that isn't tied down by years of baggage, or has to mesh with pre-existing sets of skills and traits. I don't mean to underestimate how much work it is to create and balance a new class, but at least it's something that can be designed from the ground up with the benefit of years of GW2 experience.

You say it puts a leash, but Especs aren't whats doing that. Credit for that problem goes specifically to Weapon skills and Traits being Tree based; and renders the rest of the list as being universal to the system, not just some outlier unique to how Especs were used.

Secondly, you're last point on the list would never happen anyway, because of a thing called "release schedules". As much people think this would be a good idea, the truth is for any kind of content to be coherent, is to have the mechanics that interact come out as a block/chunk. Some are universal, some are not. Even if we look at existing class balance, doing updates or changes to just "SOME" of the classes isn't good enough to solve the problems created by the design, or how players use that design. With the way players pine for "new content' on a constant basis, we've learned 2 things about how their responses form.

• Metering content over a long period doesn't solve the problem. Satisfaction with modern game development is no longer properly represented in amount of content, but by overall rate of change. As much as players complain about changes, a larger % no longer tolerate stagnation.... there are just too many games out there that can offer something new to do, and possibly even cheaper to approach. Players right have a kind of skewed view of investment; often paradoxically demanding time investment retain its value, and then be lowered for old content so things can be caught up faster at the more important "end game".
• Releasing content with missing components is even worse. As an Action game, GW2's core game play design is based on mechanical counter-play. Fighting most enemies is much like having a fairly simple logic puzzle- and the only reason this isn't apparent in Core Tyria is due to how short the fights end up being. Try playing Heart of Thorns using Core spec builds. Its incredibly difficult for most players, because most classes don't have the offensive counter mechanics offered by their Especs. HoT couldn't have launched without its Especs, because the Core Professions don't have enough CC in their design to keep pace with that demand. Redesigning core is also not a reliable option, since too many things are baked into how its content works. Classes can be Tweaked, but its too late for full redesigns, unless players are willing to wait for whats basically going to be GuildWars 3.

This is where Especs come in. Especs can expand the classes by replacing a small, but significant chunk of its mechanics. The results are a new play style thats substantially different from previous offerings, but created at a fraction of the resources of a unique class. Alternatively, if you kept creating new classes all the time, you'd end up with the problem that LOL and MTG has, in that designs start to become redundant and/or abandoned due to being unviable against newer mechanics. In the former case, this is caused by accumulation, and in the latter its caused by planned obsolescence. This would be a huge problem, because the players also demand character investment.... the kind that justifies spending upwards of 1000 hours after 5 years. GW2 can't completely avoid this, because its a game that just inherently has to support older content to some level. They almost went with the disposable content cycle, but players demanded otherwise (see Season 1 - Scarlet Wars).

Limitations aren't inherently a bad thing either. Humans like to overcome problems; and many of the best video games in history were born from a creative solution to a seemingly insurmountable problem. The core classes have a great frame work for this kind of design expansion, because they were originally designed with interplay and soft limits, rather then dependence and hard limits. This gives this design enough room to add new mechanics, extending the list by which each class can operate, without dead locking the class entirely should a spec line lack something. The more options each class gets, the LESS restrictive each character's use case becomes. Compare that to WoW, where every time a new class gets added they just skip the leveling process, but you are not faced with the choice of abandoning your previous character to work on gearing up this new one. At least with GW2, your current gear set is viable until you can collect whats needed to set up a new build... and in most cases, you still keep your old gear for later use in another build and/or fall back to your previous build.

So when you boil it down, you're making an argument for MORE exclusionary design, but with none of the benefits that don't already exist in how Especs work.

[Super Hayes.6890]

If I can't get new character classes I want as many elite specs as they are willing to program.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Elite specs saved GW2 from dying. Combat was stale until HoT was released. Encounters boiled down to one-shot or dodge. We had to blast fire fields just to stack might.

[STIHL.2489]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Elite specs saved GW2 from dying. Combat was stale until HoT was released. Encounters boiled down to one-shot or dodge. We had to blast fire fields just to stack might.

To be fair... encounters still are one shot.. depending on which elite spec is doing the shooting.

[phokus.8934]

Bring on new elites. I love the concept of playing a class differently based on an elite trait line.

[Deadvillager.1956]

Anet cant stop before they havent introduced a necro elite spec with good power DPS. I dream of the day where instead of switching my DPS class in raids, I can instead click the build template button to respecc from scourge condi to whatever does power DPS.

[Ardid.7203]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Elite specs saved GW2 from dying. Combat was stale until HoT was released. Encounters boiled down to one-shot or dodge. We had to blast fire fields just to stack might.

Blasting fields is actually more interesting than just mashing braindead meta skills. I miss the times when that extra effort was meaningful.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Variety is good and sooner or later those new elite specs are nerfed to make it a little fairer (not down right even matched) but, fairer to those without the expansions running vanilla specs.

[Dralor.3701]

I’d rather see some semblance of balance with what we have. Power creep and or nerfing old specs into oblivion for the expansion is also sad.

Give us more content sure but I think the balance or skills? team has already shown the can’t handle the current number of classes.

[Daishi.6027]

If it was significantly cheaper but at least offered new core utilities, heal, and elities it would be fine. (You need to offer at least something new to play with, and new build options is the only real way to convince PvPers to invest.)

But the current design of getting something that significantly changes the class and either having the option of running through the expansion with it (like PoF), or fighting through the brush to unlock it and build power in it (like HoT); is kind of part of the experience people are paying for.

If new masteries are engaging enough alone, perhaps potent enough to add a new consistent depth to PvE combat, may fly. But so far including LS they have been extremely limited, or utility, both usually in the form of convenience. Updrafts are pretty cool in some fights, but I still consider that limited compared to the entire rest of the game.

For the most part yes I think they do need to be included, but that isn't hard lined if the scope and price reflects it. People will be disappointed with no new toys on an expansion. I can grantee that.

[Lunalight.8120]

The most important part of any MMO is the gameplay, cause if you're not into that, you cant be bothered for the other stuff. Therefore I think it is important to bring fresh gameplay into the game every now and then, cause otherwise gameplay will get stale and people will get bored and leave. It's also beneficial for potential new players that there's a class they really want to play to get them into the game, so offering as much variety as possible is a good thing.

Personally, I'd prefer elite specs to be sold seperately on their own, that way they aren't forced to rush them out there to fit in with the expansion releases and have the time needed to properly test and balance them. The thing is though that for many people - me included - elite specs are like 90% of why they buy expansions, so I can see why they're not doing that.

[Brother.1504]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@"EpicName.4523" said:Amazing. This is the first time I see someone wanting LESS for what he is paying. This is like going to the shop, buying a cheese then slicing it in half and giving the rest back because "it is too much."

I actually do that sometimes in restaurants when they give too much french fries, because they think (and many do so) more is better. No, it isn't. Sometimes less is better. Or rather: quality instead of quantity. And we have to go back to this - especially concerning food and health. Everyone and everything is suffering from the food industry - especially in the US.

That said concerning guild wars: I would like to have a different development than just new specs again and again. Hence a new level cap with advanced skills would be nice. Don't get me wrong. Ascended and legendary gear should be adapted to this new level cap.

No new level cap. No new tier of gear. Moar free French Fries!!!

[Dralor.3701]

What if they introduced 2-3 weapons for the core class as opposed to more elite specs?

[Ashantara.8731]

@Tanuk.7961 said:They should do that. 1 new class per armor weight with 2 elites each. Paragon for heavy, Dervish for medium, and Rit for light each with 2 elites. I'd pay all kinds of money for that. Heck, I'd pay all kinds of money just for a Rit by itself.

I want the Monk back first and foremost, then the Ritualist, then the Paragon, and the least appealing to me, the Dervish.

@OP: This contribution to the discussion sums the status quo up the best.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Excessive specs will make game over-redundant and saturated.Perhaps theres a room only more one xpac with specializations.

[Anchoku.8142]

Although new elite specializations are nice shiny profession options to learn and new maps are vast spaces to explore, there are aspects of the game stuck in the 1990s. Crafting, gathering, lack of fishing, limit on guilds that can be joined, AI behavior, trading post UI, and other aspects of the game. It would be very nice if the game natively supported stereoscopic VR devices.

[Zauriel Mooncat.4968]

I personally believe that higher ammount of content, let it be cosmetic, maps, specs, achivements, events, and anything else, adds more value to the game, let it be from the smallest implementations, to the largest. So I feel the need to say yes.

I also have to agree with you that new core weapons would be amazing, in fact I still think that Anet hints at times that maybe iron knukles could be one (due to the many fist attacks (unarmed attacks) that I have seen thoughout PoF)

[Benkorah.6048]

We need something new each expansion to continue expanding the variety of available builds. Cross-profession elite specs would be cool, or new weapons that aren't tied to a spec - entirely new weapon types like scythe or javelin would be neat additions. So strictly speaking, we may not need 9 elite specs each expansion, but we do need to expand the build variety by the degree that it is expanded by 9 new elite specs, so in a binary world, where I must vote either yes or no... I vote yes.

[reapex.8546]

@Assic.2746 said:On the other hand we are getting 9 new elite specs but for 6 years we haven't gotten missing core profession skills - healing & elite.

Every core profession has heals and a elite skill

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@reapex.8546 said:

@Assic.2746 said:On the other hand we are getting 9 new elite specs but for 6 years we haven't gotten missing core profession skills - healing & elite.

Every core profession has heals and a elite skill

Assic is (I hope) referring to the core skill rework during which some healing and elite skills were revised to make them fit existing skill types. For example, Healing Spring (Ranger) was made into a Trap skill, meaning it could benefit from traits that benefit Traps. Before that rework, Healing Spring was not assigned a skill type. ANet also added at least one Elite Skill (Signet of Courage replaced Tome of Courage as a Guardian Elite). This rework happened considerably less than 6 years ago (June, 2015).

At the time, there was a lot of speculation that ANet would flesh out the list of heals/elites so that there was one for each skill type used for the profession. The speculation has never borne out. However, in creating the Elite specs, ANet did make heals and Elites to fit the new skill type assigned to the Elite Spec, which I am sure adds to the hope that ANet will flesh out the core skill system. I don't recall ANet ever saying they would, but speculation is not far removed from expectation due to how information spreads on the internet.

[Ashen.2907]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Assic.2746 said:On the other hand we are getting 9 new elite specs but for 6 years we haven't gotten missing core profession skills - healing & elite.

Every core profession has heals and a elite skill

Assic is (I hope) referring to the core skill rework during which some healing and elite skills were revised to make them fit existing skill types. For example, Healing Spring (Ranger) was made into a Trap skill, meaning it could benefit from traits that benefit Traps. Before that rework, Healing Spring was not assigned a skill type. ANet also added at least one Elite Skill (Signet of Courage replaced Tome of Courage as a Guardian Elite). This rework happened considerably less than 6 years ago (June, 2015).

At the time, there was a lot of speculation that ANet would flesh out the list of heals/elites so that there was one for each skill type used for the profession. The speculation has never borne out. However, in creating the Elite specs, ANet did make heals and Elites to fit the new skill type assigned to the Elite Spec, which I am sure adds to the hope that ANet will flesh out the core skill system. I don't recall ANet ever saying they would, but speculation is not far removed from expectation due to how information spreads on the internet.

I so want to see an elite trap added to the ranger arsenal.