Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

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Comments

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.

    While I'm sure that it CAN be used for every playstyle, my understanding is (particularly in raids) that it is primarily used for max clearspeed which is probably why so many people have issues with it.

    It's actually the exact opposite in my experience. In pugs it mostly gets used to check if someone is vastly under performing and in non speedclears guilds mostly for the boon uptime feature and friendly dps competitions

  • @MUDse.7623 said:
    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    @yann.1946 said:
    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

    I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

    1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)
    2. minimal movement during combat
    3. stay alive

    I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

    DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Its not a dps meter that ruined your Day, it was a player using it. Dps meter is a great tool, some players are just idiots :)

    Yeah this sounds like the MEPS to me (massive e-kitten syndrome). It is commonly misdiagnosed as toxic game mechanics but who are we kidding. Games cant be toxic.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    @yann.1946 said:
    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

    I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations.

    It can still help you improve you're build In that situation tho. You might not be interested in that but it still can given the sets off constraints

    For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

    1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)
    2. minimal movement during combat
    3. stay alive

    I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

    Yes you shouldn't do things you don't enjoy in the game I agree.

    DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

    You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

    If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

    Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

  • Its an underwater fractal, do not worry about it, id honestly say 95%+ players in this game have not geared themselves for underwater.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    @yann.1946 said:
    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

    I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

    1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)
    2. minimal movement during combat
    3. stay alive

    I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

    DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

    that is unfortunate, but by demanding other players should lower their expectations you attempt to force your problem on them. If they are fine to accept your mediocre performance fine, if not, also fine. Also, the build you describe will perform so noticeably badly you would not need ARC to begin with.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    Let me add, by the way. I always stayed with ONLY inclusive guilds / clans / cabals / factions / pantheons whathaveyou. We had people with varying needs and ceilings. We always worked with them. It is amazing to be able to figure things out with your DEDICATED group. I am a slow person, I can't perform as well as most players out there. But we figure out ways I can improve and synergies for our group to cover for me, for instance.

    These are ALL only possible with tools to analyse combat data. Otherwise, it is half the fun gone for groups like mine.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    @yann.1946 said:
    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

    I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

    1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)
    2. minimal movement during combat
    3. stay alive

    I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

    DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

    On the contrary, DPS meters could be very very useful for you. I agree with everything you said about playstyle - play this game the way you want - however there are different levels/ranks of content for a reason.

    Nobody is (or should) be using DPS meters in T1, so if because of limitations you cannot execute rotations, etc, and therefore have lower DPS, then you will have no issues doing fractals at that level. If you're trying to do T4s, a DPS meter will tell you whether you can provide competitive DPS numbers in spite of your limitations or not. If the answer is yes, go in to T4 with full confidence that you are pulling your weight. If the answer is no, then you can be honest with yourself and choose to play in a lower tier where DPS numbers aren't as critical and expectations are (or should be) more relaxed.

    I installed arcDPS recently just because I was curious what was out there, and so far the only salient point I've derived from its use is that I can improve my damage, as I see others hitting significantly higher numbers than me, leading me to ask the question: why? Whether I consider that relevant or even important is a different question, as my DPS is competitive (even though I'm playing a quasi-support build atm) and I'm able to follow boss mechanics and live to the end, which is just as important as pumping out damage.

    Honestly friends, I've seen pugs much much worse than what I see in GW2. This game is a veritable haven compared to the sewer that is LFG in many of the other MMO's I've played.

    And @ the OP's comments about Birds: people in my group the other night said almost exactly the same thing. I'm sure ANET will eventually remove that instability, but 'till then, we just have to endure.

  • @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    @yann.1946 said:
    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

    I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

    1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)
    2. minimal movement during combat
    3. stay alive

    I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

    DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

    The DPS meter has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario you describe. Good on you for notifying your group regarding your issues, but it's up to the group to decide whether or not they wish to play with you. They should certainly be respectful in making that decision, but if your performance is problematic for the group then you have to go. They don't owe you a carry. So why shouldn't they have tools to measure performance?

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.
    you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.
    another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

    if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

  • Nury.3062Nury.3062 Member ✭✭✭

    The DPS meter is an enabler,it enables people to be toxic and even breeds toxicity through the obsession towards min /max than actual content.I am all for DPS meter when it can show only your own dps and not everyone's dps. While not so serious or aggravating I kinda find a 3rd party tool that can check any information about me to be somewhat intruding.

  • @sorudo.9054 said:
    i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.
    you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.
    another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

    if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

    You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

    Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

    Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

  • @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    Thank you for bringing up the topic again and thank you for having the guts to speak up.

    While I do agree with some people that the problem of toxicity is a player created problem, I do believe that the meter promotes the toxicity by giving those people "facts" to reinforce their accusations. Without the meters +- a few thousands are barely noticable and it is not detectable who would be the evil efficiency-defier. In addition I have to mention, that the time you lose with a non-optimal group is in most cases shorter than a pee-break (male). If I am that much in a hurry, I would not turn on the client anyway. But I guess this is not bare figures, it is about principals.

  • @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    Thank you for bringing up the topic again and thank you for having the guts to speak up.

    While I do agree with some people that the problem of toxicity is a player created problem, I do believe that the meter promotes the toxicity by giving those people "facts" to reinforce their accusations. Without the meters +- a few thousands are barely noticable and it is not detectable who would be the evil efficiency-defier. In addition I have to mention, that the time you lose with a non-optimal group is in most cases shorter than a pee-break (male). If I am that much in a hurry, I would not turn on the client anyway. But I guess this is not bare figures, it is about principals.

    There are very few players who are going to make a stink about a few thousand DPS that nobody in the group is missing. What else do you call those players but "toxic"? And how would those players behave if they didn't have a DPS meter? You guessed it: Toxic! But now instead of excluding people on the basis of performance, they'll exclude people for things like not having X achievement, not having enough of Y item that proves you've done the content 40 million times, or just because you play Z class. Or even worse, for perceived performance issues (e.g. you stood in the fire once during a wipe - kicked!).

    If you're somehow managing to encounter these players frequently, I'm guessing it's because you're more than "a few thousand" DPS short and you make no effort to avoid groups that are expecting a certain level of performance. While I don't support the disrespectful way some players choose to interact with others based upon performance in a video game, people should also take responsibility for their part in it. If you aren't up to standard, it might be a good idea to tell people that up front when you join groups for high end content (i.e. t4 fractals, CMs, raids, speed runs). If you don't, you shouldn't be surprised when you keep encountering toxic behavior (justified or not).

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.
    you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.
    another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

    if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

    You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

    Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

    Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

    the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

    it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.
    that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't understand how it is any better feeling entitled to keep people from clearing content for hours on end?

    That excludes me. I dislike not knowing what's keeping us back. How is that any better?

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.
    you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.
    another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

    if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

    You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

    Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

    Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

    the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

    it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.
    that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

    Then dont join the people that expect performance, join group that say newbies ok, all welcome or chilled run etc.

    and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?
    oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sorudo.9054 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.
    you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.
    another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

    if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

    You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

    Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

    Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

    the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

    it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.
    that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

    Then dont join the people that expect performance, join group that say newbies ok, all welcome or chilled run etc.

    and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?
    oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

    You know best what you are capable of. If you're frequently getting kicked then maybe you're trying to get into the wrong content?

    I was messing around in T2 on an alt the other day, and a Ranger came in using a Longbow. Nothing was said, but on the boss fight where most were putting out 4-5k DPS, he dished out around 900 DPS. Now again that's T2, but had this guy grabbed 150AR and walked into a T4, you can bet he would have been kicked, and rightly so.

    There is no defending toxic behaviour, but not everyone who gets booted from a party is the fault of toxicity.

    It's right up there with speed limits: if we could trust everyone to drive sensibly, there would be no need...but society doesn't work that way, and so we cater to the lowest common denominator. In GW2 speak, there are plenty of people who think they should get the rewards of T4 dailies, but require other people to do the heavy lifting in order to do so. While that shouldn't be a justification for using a DPS meter, it is one of the benefits of doing so; and players like me, who stayed in T2 and T3 for months practicing until I felt confident I could perform in T4, wholeheartedly approve of it.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

    In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

    The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

    I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

  • That's why i'm avoiding all LFG "chrono only", "druid only", "2057947 KP only", or "BS, druid, chrono, fb", even if i play class that "they need". People get something with head - first of all, they wait MUCH longer than it takes for me to do that fractal, second - who the heck are you to tell everyone how they have to play? And last one - game was design to do anything in pretty any team composition. And guess what - it works that way. 100 CM done at first try with berserker, berserker, weaver, soulbeast, deadeye It was pretty fast, no problems, no wait. And everyone play how they want. But hey, it wasn't "speed run" so we do it slower for whole 40 seconds. But if we add 6-8 wipes before boss in "speed run" then we still was better :pensive: .

    And if someone start in my group with "omg, how you deal only 300k dps for whole boss fight, noob, kick him" - i dont ask, just kick. Even if i deal most dmg in team, just somehow i get out of combat for split second, then back so it reset. Clever person might just add 2+ 2 and wonder where is rest of boss hp :P.

    But tool is just a tool. Its nice for YOURSELF to improve rotation or build, but it shouldn't be used to pointed other people. Once i was accused of not doing enought dps on raid... when i have to do mechanics bcs our healer died (it was last 20% so better try finish it than wipe) and still deal more dps than 2 others. What i did? Said to squad "sorry people, but i dont know how such a dumb person can lead your static raid group" and i just report him and leave without any comment. Two mintutes later few people from that squad tell me that they are sorry, that he got a bad day, that dead healer notice what i did, that they thanks me etc and that they wanted me for another raid. For real? His excuse is "bad day" ? So i answer "im sorry for you folks, now i have bad day too. And guess what - i dont need another one, so i have to reject your offer".

    People are such a genetic mistake... I know, emotions and all that stuff. But before i accuse someone i try to get as much intel as possible to be hell sure my point. Not just check dps meter "he is zero, he do nothing" and start to blame. And the most stupid argue is when everything goes great but you still have to blame "but you should have 10k dmg more". As far as it's about me - im fine with almost everything. As long as we can do it in resonable time without too much wipes. And thats why i dont like people in full berserker - sure, you deal 1k dps more... but you are one-shoted by everything. One mistake - you are dead. And sorry, but i dont trust people that they are such a "pro" and can dodge every single attack :P

  • @yann.1946 said:
    You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

    As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

    If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

    It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.

    Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

    It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

    @AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629
    I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.
    I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

    @Turkeyspit.3965
    I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.


    TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

    As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

    If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

    It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.

    Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

    It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

    @AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629
    I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.
    I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

    To be completely honest with you, you are talking from a place of not having to care about those. Some group stuff become more and more wipefests with low DPS geoups. Some stuff becomes impossible with low enough DPS. Now, I'm not talking about T4s or anything like that. T4s are so easy 2 people can easily carry a group. I still would respect people who would want a fast clear AND let people know beforehand.

    @Turkeyspit.3965
    I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.


    That is not correct. Some content REQUIRE DPS in the range that is considered "high" by the majority of the game's populace. You could hear stuff like "meh, those do not require high dps, if everyone is at basic ranges, it is fine" and the DIVIDE is such that they are talking about 10-15K dps whereas LOW DPS is like 2k. Don't ask me how people do 2k with DPS builds, I do not know, but they do.

    TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.

    And the game's enjoyment, for some, come from completing relatively harder content. And that becomes impossibly bad in terms of toxicity and frustration when there is no numeric data to analyse the situation.

    THe person who would base all your performance on how many Ks of DPS you do WILL already base it on literally anything else if we don't have DPS metres. AND I amd ny kind will not play the game. So, I dunno, I am not sure DPS metres have ANYTHING to do with people being kitten.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.


    I think it's fair to distinguish between what you need to complete the content, and what people ask for speed runs. I regularly clear all T4 daily + recs in about 45mins queuing up with a Druid friend, while I play Quickbrand - we pug the 3 DPS.

    I have no idea of a tanky build that can solo champions in open world is capable of doing the same in T4 fractals. I'm of the opinion (that's all, no facts) that damage in fractals eventually becomes unsustainable: your abilities go on cooldown, and eventually you are downed. The strategy then, is to avoid as much damage as possible (dodge) while doing as much damage as possible to kill the boss before you take so much damage that players go into downed state.

    I've been in the odd fight where it took way longer than normal to phase the boss (because of low DPS) and the result isn't just a longer fight, but a MUCH harder fight, further complicated by having to revive downed or even defeated players.

    But again we are talking about LFG. If you want to form a group and clear the content slowly with tanky builds, go for it. But I expect to clear my dailies in about the same amount of time each day, and it's a very reasonable expectation as I've been doing it successfully for 6 months straight, all with LFG players. If someone wants to come in to my group and subsequently slows it down because they aren't ready for T4, or don't want to use the most efficient build, that is hardly being considerate of the other 4 players in the group. I've never wanted to be "that guy", and thankfully I've only had to kick people from my group who went AFK, but if I form a group, I feel responsible to help everyone have a good time, and if 1 of the 5 players is really dragging their feet, making it harder on the rest of us, I may not propose they be kicked, but I'll certainly support that initiative if another party member makes that call.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    My experience parallels Turkeyspit.

    Some content definitely becomes much, much harder with low dps.

    Imagine a hard to avoid mechanic (like CM100 final phase, where there are regular aoes, facing mechanisms, quick twitch almost one shot mechanics AND floor regularly disappearing further limiting your mobility). Now, if you can clear that phase in 15 seconds, you survive, clear, happy happy loot loot. If that takes 3 minutes, you will invariably have deaths making it harder and harder to clear.

    Being "tanky" won't help you there. Having good reflexes and concentration does. Not being a savant, having high dps helps ME.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nury.3062 said:
    The DPS meter is an enabler,it enables people to be toxic and even breeds toxicity through the obsession towards min /max than actual content.I am all for DPS meter when it can show only your own dps and not everyone's dps. While not so serious or aggravating I kinda find a 3rd party tool that can check any information about me to be somewhat intruding.

    No more toxic than people that look down on others because they dont buy outfits from the gemstore. Elitism comes in all flavors, so just ignore it.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    See i think playing the game casually no you dont need a damage meter or any thing like that. But i believe if you are going to coordinate with a team on raid bosses then part of that is being able to help not hinder a team. Meters in the hands of someone that is responsible show more than just damage, at least the good ones do. They can show in logs where you need to improve heals /dodging/boons. Its not fair to the rest of the team if one person isnt contributing or being a dead weight. It takes a team to down a boss, not a solo player. In that same thought i dont think people with damage meters that decide to pug should belittle anyone, you want competent raiding then join a guild team.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

    Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

    As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

    I disagree with the fact that they enable toxicity. The toxic people I know where so before and after meters where a thing in this game.

    They can help with minmaxing stuff but it's the content / people most of the time who promote specific playstyles.

    As an example did meters change you're playstyle?

    If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

    It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.

    This statement was more that the existence of the meter doesn't really change the outcome.

    Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

    It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

    Good luck with playing with you're son. Do you have an ergonomic mouse?

    @AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629
    I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.
    I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

    This has nothing to do with the meter tho.?

    @Turkeyspit.3965
    I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

    Some things become way easier after certain dps thresholds are met. And I don't think their is anything which needs it in a literal sense (maybe samarog) but saying it's nessecary is also not really lying in certain cases.


    TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.

  • alcopaul.2156alcopaul.2156 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    Remote Desktop Connection. That's the way to go. Arcdps is mega-amateur compared to that.

    Your Math Tèacher [MATH]
    Digital Headhuntaz [aBrA]

  • @Shivvies.3921 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    You are basically telling me I play the game wrong. I enjoy playing this way and I do not infringe on anyone else's fun. I also have been a gamer for over 35 years. I mean, I don't think I care about the lesson you are teaching me here.

    A game is whatever to you and another thing to another person. You do not get to tell people this is the better way to play. There is a very large number of people who like challenges. I have always loved theory crafting, min maxing, tactical play both with pen and paper, strategy games, cRPGs and MMOs. I really don't understand how you can think a game is what you perceive it to be objectively.

    I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

    Do not get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we all should be playing together regardless of preferences. But we should be polite, civilised, and not spoiling each others fun. Let slow people be slow. Let fast people be fast. This game is big and diverse enough to provide plenty of enjoyment to everyone.

  • @sorudo.9054 said:
    it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.
    that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

    You seem to be taking this very seriously yourself, no? Also, it isn't "your own" enjoyment when there are 4-9 other players present in the group, is it? But I agree that the bigger problem is players not being respectful of one another. And, as I said, this has absolutely nothing to do with damage meters.

    Practically speaking, you aren't going to force everyone to be kind to one another. The best you can do from your end is to make your expectations clear and avoid grouping with players whose expectations don't align with your own. It also wouldn't hurt if you stopped thinking of participation in content with other players as a right owed to you. Having different priorities in a video game is not a sin and they are not harming you by wishing to play with a different type of player than yourself.> @sorudo.9054 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:

    and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?
    oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

    Again, this has nothing to do with damage meters. Make your expectations clear when forming a group. It will never 100% ensure zero toxicity, but it should keep it to a minimum. And remember that it's just a game.

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

    As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

    I disagree with the fact that they enable toxicity. The toxic people I know where so before and after meters where a thing in this game.

    Maybe 'enable' is not the most precise word in this case. Maybe 'trigger' or 'justify' would fit better.

    They can help with minmaxing stuff but it's the content / people most of the time who promote specific playstyles.
    As an example did meters change you're playstyle?

    They did. I do not like drama. So, after several quite unpleasant encounters I started to play almost exclusively solo.
    And I also faced a situation similar to the other commentor in this thread: People came to my LFG group which was listed as new player, 1st dungeon run and kicked me out after a couple of fights. You can argue, that it's people who are not nice and meters have nothing to do with it. But a DPS meter was used as an excuse to hi-jack my group.

    Good luck with playing with you're son. Do you have an ergonomic mouse?

    Mouse, keyboard, touchpad, special gloves :)

    @AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629
    I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.
    I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

    This has nothing to do with the meter tho.?

    This was a reply to a suggestion that I feel entitled to be in a speed-clearing group. I do not.

    @Turkeyspit.3965
    I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

    Some things become way easier after certain dps thresholds are met. And I don't think their is anything which needs it in a literal sense (maybe samarog) but saying it's nessecary is also not really lying in certain cases.

    Easier =/= required. This is my point. I am not arguing that high DPS make most fights in this game faster and easier. They do. But you still can do most of the content that I am aware of with non-optimal DPS. Again, I am not forcing people to slow down for me. I would rather be on a 'snail' team.

  • @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

    In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

    The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

    I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

    Personally, I support comprehensive stats as a built-in feature. Allow players to hide their stats from other players, but also create filters to allow players to form groups according to their preferences. That should give the players who want it better information while reducing toxicity (which is the real issue here).

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    Do not get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we all should be playing together regardless of preferences. But we should be polite, civilised, and not spoiling each others fun. Let slow people be slow. Let fast people be fast. This game is big and diverse enough to provide plenty of enjoyment to everyone.

    In my opinion, this goes without saying.

    The discussion is not that, though. The discussion is about a tool that basically lets me enjoy the game. I definitely wouldn't have stuck around as long as I have if there were no real analysis tools. I mean, yeah, I like doing other things too in the game but group content is where it's at for me.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

    In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

    The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

    I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

    Personally, I support comprehensive stats as a built-in feature. Allow players to hide their stats from other players, but also create filters to allow players to form groups according to their preferences. That should give the players who want it better information while reducing toxicity (which is the real issue here).

    I like it. It's probably too much to ask, but it would help.

    If they did so, they could also implement a system where it stops working when you accumulate too many "this guy is a jerk" penalties, a rating other players could give when someone is being toxic with the numbers. It's not going to happen, but I would support it.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    no worries folks, problem is solved since OP abandoned this thread.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:
    no worries folks, problem is solved since OP abandoned this thread.

    Since the thread has pretty much devolved into all of the other DPS threads, perhaps it is a good thing

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dps meter is great. It gives me a chance to play content how i want, with ppl who can perform well. Have i kicked some1 from party? No. If dps is not high enough, i can just leave and join in other party. I have a limited Time to play, not gonna waste it in raids with players who does 15k dps.

    Thats not elitism, its My way to play and i will always do it non toxic way. If group dps is low, ill just say "gtg gl with your Raid :)".

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    Toxicity will exist, with or without the DPS meters. With the DPS meters we will actually at least have reliable statistics.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

    Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.

    Now, that was on one particular fight - what about the next one? Perhaps on that one the 1st build does more damage?

    That is why when builds are posted on Metabattle or Discretize, etc, it's because they have done all the testing, the research, and have put these builds into practice. Are they perfect? I don't think they are, because they only work in a "laboratory setting" if you will: basically, if you are in an ideal comp, with an ideal computer, with a well practiced and experienced player who knows the rotations and the boss mechanics by heart, you can pull off these numbers. Essentially most of us won't hit those marks - but that doesn't mean the core concept isn't solid, and we just need to manage our expectations.

    So what do I mean by that? Well they say that running full Berserker on virtually every Power build is the best DPS. Fine, I won't argue that. But if a player decides to run some Marauder pieces in place of Zerk, they will still be putting out very competitive DPS while having boosted survivability. It's when players figure they can get away with running Soldier or Cavalier armor that we run into problems, or that running Celestial Armor on a Signet D/D thief makes sense because they use every stat...

    Now again we are assuming the goal is to be efficient in clearing the instance, and maybe that isn't a particular player's motivation; maybe they just really love using a Greatsword on their Mesmer or Longbow on their Ranger - and that is totally fine, so long as you are grouped up with people who also aren't concerned about killing the boss as efficiently as possible, but you will run into problems if you just join a random LFG expecting them to play on your terms.

    Consider the opposite: if you decide you want a slow paced fractal run, killing every NPC, skipping nothing, how would it feel if a player joined the group and kept typing "c'mon go go go go" and was skipping ahead to trigger checkpoints and kept asking why nobody was using "gg"? That would, I bet, be annoying.

    Everyone wins when we are considerate of other people, and the LFG window has room for a description, so use it!

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

    Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

    Believe it or not, but I don't min/max in any strategy games I play...because it's a game and I really don't care most of the time. At least you realized it's an opinion, whether it's weird or not is just your opinion of my opinion.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

    I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

    Cheers...

    I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

    Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

    Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

    I'd argue the majority of players of chess don't minmax but rather evolve and learn. To minmax in chess is to pull up a chess AI and wade through the many possible moves and try to predict what your opponent will choose...I don't think it's fair to play chess like that. You should rely on your own experience and learned strategies and observations, not on an AI to tell you your moves for you.

    ...unless you're talking about competitive chess tournaments, which I have zero experience with so have no idea what minmaxing involves there. I'd still argue that most games of chess that occur are not professional level but rather tutorial and to build experience...or for fun.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

    Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.

    Oh! That earns credence to my previous observations. I'd take that example one step further and say that, if a player sees their 18k DPS build can do 2k extra damage if they alter certain aspects of their build thanks to the DPS meter, they likely will change their build. However, player preference playing a role, if those aspects that need to be changed also offer a level of entertainment (i.e. it's their favorite part of their character), what outcomes could occur?

    One might be that player and a subset of those that support her could appeal to the devs to improve those aspects they enjoy to make them remain competitive. That could have other repercussions though.

    Another is the player might just begrudgingly alter their build and complain how there aren't enough build variety or build flexibility.

    Yet another is the player just dismisses the improvements and accepts the lower performance so they can keep enjoying the aspects of their character. Might have a snowball effect as performance is emphasized more and more throughout the community who are constantly sharpening their performance to the bleeding edge. I think this is likely what people in this thread complain about. Those mediocre builds are being highlighted ever more as power creep and expectations continue to narrow because many more players resort to the previous option and just go rank and file with the minmax builds. Are those rank and file groups also taking their begrudging attitude out on those not willing to conform? Probably not, but that doesn't change what the dynamic might do.

    Again, these aren't arguments against the DPS meter, just observations. I'm sure there are other aspects of the situation I'm overlooking which is why I'm still reading the thread.

    @yann.1946 said:
    Now, that was on one particular fight - what about the next one? Perhaps on that one the 1st build does more damage?

    [EDIT] Oh, another aspect I think could be highlighted. I believe people have, in the past, taken issue with the lack of variety of encounter being the symptom of lack of build variety. I'd push it one more step further and highlight how limited the build outputs are, build output relating to what a build actually does. Healing used to not be a thing but that has changed some but is it enough? There's also DPS which breaks down into conditions and direct damage. Then there's boon generation. The only build leg left is CC which is more a vestigial anemic type of build output only facilitated by breakbars. That's about it. And as performance is being narrowed, those legs of build output are being specialized. Like, the field of pet-oriented DPS is going out of style because it's not "active" enough. Buffing roles are not only passive but rely on giving as many types of boons, condensing many roles into 1-2. Condis is just a button-mash of pile on all your condis...there's no distinction of what they actually do. CC is held back because of PvP. etc etc.

    In other MMOs, these various legs are exaggerated to the extreme. In GW2, they are downplayed to the extreme. This is reflected in the encounters which rely more on timing, dodging and reading the enemy, none of which have anything to do with build.

  • @BlueJin.4127 said:
    Some criminal ran over people with a car. Let’s ban cars!
    Some criminal stabbed people with a pen. Let’s ban pens!
    Some criminal chocked people with his hands. Let’s remove peoples’ hands!
    Some criminal went on a killing spree, also happened to be playing video games on occasion. Let’s ban video games!

    fixed that last one.

  • Dreamy Lu.3865Dreamy Lu.3865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    DPS meters are a subject repeating again and again. As long as no acceptable solution is available, it will remain the same. I do not want to repeat same than I did in all other threads about the point already. I just tell short version of my thinking: I am one who first hated them and now love to use them, if they are used correctly. I find that:

    • DPS meters are good when working together as a team to ensure optimized DPS out (agreed by all), for example in raid (not limited to).
    • They are very helpful for self when learning a DPS class, to see when best to cast skills and check if we perform as should be.

    Unfortunately, aside of this - like any other tools - there are those who misuse them. Personally, if I agree that as are now, DPS meters are not perfect, I don't believe that that they are the root cause of the problem. Think about it: Generally, in or out of games, whatever tool you take, no matter how good it is, there will always be someone who will achieve to misuse it for unwanted purposes.

    So, it is true, as are now, the DPS meters are not ideal and we need a compromise solution, acceptable enough to satisfy both parties (those who like, those who dislike). But it is important to remain realistic: Even if we ever reach a good solution, there will still be players who will find a way around.

    I'm out of my mind, feel free to leave a message...

  • Ol Nik.2518Ol Nik.2518 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

    Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.

    The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances.

    I suppose that you use arcdps. If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.).

    Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight.

    It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS.

    P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play.

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