[Feedback] How i took the largest hit to my opinion about the game, since returning - Boreal Bags

[Aerensiniac.3584]

1 hour ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

It's not that these discussions are moot, but the OP doesn't do himself any favours by slandering the entity he's trying to engage with, not a useful method to encourage any discussion. 

Offtopic, but just to humor your point... are you aware of the hierarchy of disagreement pyramid that details responses to a particular point and furthers a healthy discussion? It goes kinda like this from most productive to most toxic and destructive:
1. Refuting the central point: Explicitly refutes the central point of the argument
2. Refuting the general point: finds the mistake and explains why its mistaken in a general sense
3. Counter argument: contradicts the point, then elaborates why that would be the case using reasoning/evidence
4. Contradiction: States the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence
5. Responding to the tone: Criticizes the tone of the writing without addressing the point or substance of it
6. Ad hominem: Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance or point
7. Name calling

Thought it would be an interesting read for you, considering that you didnt post anything about the topic, but went through the effort of combing through all of my comments and quote every sentence where you disagree with the general tone, regardless of context or point.
Finally: Yes. I use hyperboles to underline my point. Not sure how interpreting this as "slander" is of use to anyone other than stirring up hate, but i can most positively assure you that if i want to slander someone, you will notice. I am not prone to doing it in a roundabout way, or softly for that matter.

 

51 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Maybe I am reading you wrong (and I could easily be doing just that) but are you really going to let 1 wonky achievement ruin your perception of the game?  

Fair point, i guess the fact that i had an extensive argument about it with my friends exacerbated the problem.
At the same time though, i dont view this as a minor thing either. Expanding your inventory is not a small task, especially when you start out, and it doesnt help when you are looking forward to something for a month or two, just to figure out that its a scam when you get there.
Regardless, you are right. Its not the end of the world, but it most certainly didnt sit well with me.
I just cant even begin to fit as much as the concept, the ground work that goes into an idea like putting achievements in a game which are a net loss to the players, and then you get responses on the forum which range between "thats normal" and "you are not forced to do them". Not the point. The point was: Why are there achievements in the game which serve as a net loss to the players who to do them?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Aerensiniac.3584

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Almost always, research will serve one well. 

[genjonah.1253]

… because the achievement isn’t about getting a bag, it’s about unlocking prestige skins? The bag is a bonus, a way to say ‘good job on your quest of crafting these prestige items’

 

32 slot bags are unnecessary. I only have one character who has them (2 from legendary achievements, I haven’t even done the ancestral forge one yet), and I heavily play all three ‘end content’ modes. Often on alts, which have combos of 20 and 15 slot bags. Never once have I bought extra bag slots with gems, never needed to. 
 

i’m sorry, but I just see no merit to this argument. No problem to the game design/developers- they are rewarding you with something cool AS PART of a different end goal. If your end goal is bag space, that’s your business, but then yeah- do the cheaper paths to it if that’s your thing

[Strider Pj.2193]

40 minutes ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

Fair point, i guess the fact that i had an extensive argument about it with my friends exacerbated the problem.
At the same time though, i dont view this as a minor thing either. Expanding your inventory is not a small task, especially when you start out, and it doesnt help when you are looking forward to something for a month or two, just to figure out that its a scam when you get there.
Regardless, you are right. Its not the end of the world, but it most certainly didnt sit well with me.
I just cant even begin to fit as much as the concept, the ground work that goes into an idea like putting achievements in a game which are a net loss to the players, and then you get responses on the forum which range between "thats normal" and "you are not forced to do them". Not the point. The point was: Why are there achievements in the game which serve as a net loss to the players who to do them?

Point taken.  🙂

I guess because people view it as a ‘convenience’ item, they don’t mid the cost issue.  And to be clear, I have exactly ‘Zero’ bags that have more than 20 slots in them…. I work on buying the extra spots for bags.  
 

But, I also (and this was my only true valuable ‘drop’ in game) got lucky getting a permanent bank access contract from a Black Lion key..  I didn’t realize at the time how much it was worth and just equipped it..  
 

Truly, many people would have sold it for the amount of gold it was worth (I think it was north of 2500) but to me, it’s been more than worth having it, because of its convenience.  I wouldn’t have bought it though…

 

Back on topic:  I hope you don’t allow this experience to make you stop playing more.  It really is a good game.  🙂

[Aerensiniac.3584]

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Almost always, research will serve one well. 

That is undoubtedly the case.

  

23 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

 I hope you don’t allow this experience to make you stop playing more.  It really is a good game.  🙂

I agree and i probably wont let this one single thing keep me from playing it. It was just a very out of place experience for me.

  

55 minutes ago, genjonah.1253 said:

… because the achievement isn’t about getting a bag, it’s about unlocking prestige skins?

Uhh... the achievement has literally nothing to do with unlocking any of the skins... you buy the base item and you are instantly eligible to buy the recipe for the "restored" version

Edited November 2, 2021 by Aerensiniac.3584

[Danikat.8537]

I've got 1 character with an extra bag slot, all my others just have the ones they started with and I don't think any of them have a full set of 20 slot bags. I do have 1 32 slot bag; I made the Reinforced Olmakhan Bandolier because I enjoyed the series of collections which let up to it and I probably will get some others from other achievements in future, but I've never felt like I needed to max out my inventory space in this game, especially since they converted most level 80 drops into unidentified gear.

It's kind of like full legendary equipment, probably nice to have but not really necessary and not something I think most players would bother with.

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

At the same time though, i dont view this as a minor thing either. Expanding your inventory is not a small task, especially when you start out, and it doesnt help when you are looking forward to something for a month or two, just to figure out that its a scam when you get there.
Regardless, you are right. Its not the end of the world, but it most certainly didnt sit well with me.
I just cant even begin to fit as much as the concept, the ground work that goes into an idea like putting achievements in a game which are a net loss to the players, and then you get responses on the forum which range between "thats normal" and "you are not forced to do them". Not the point. The point was: Why are there achievements in the game which serve as a net loss to the players who to do them?

You keep referring to this as a scam, or similar.  Here is a snip of a post from 2017 with links to the actual cost to make/buy 20, 24, 28 and 32 slot bags.  

On 9/25/2017 at 8:06 PM, Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

• 20-slot bag:
• 24-slot bag:
• 28-slot bag:
• 32-slot bag

New Bag Slot vs 24-, 28-, & 32-slot Bags - Players Helping Players - Guild Wars 2 Forums

The post linked above goes into the basic cost for each bag looking at them as new options 4 years ago.

As you can see, the cost for each bag gets higher with per slot

7.5g/slot for 32 bag

3.3g/slot for 28 bag

1.4g/slot for 24 bag

5.125g/slot for 32 slot Boreal Trunk

So is this a scam?  I don't think so.  While we typically see things getting cheaper the greater the volume (like that big bag of potato chips), other items, like Monitors or Hard Drives, get more expensive the bigger they are.  As we can see, the cost per bag slot get incrementally more expensive as the number of slots per bag increase.  We can also see where Anet reduced the cost of acquiring a 32 slot bag during the release of the Boreal trunk.

Is it cheaper to buy a new bag slot and upgrade it to a 20 slot bag?  Sure is!  But if you reach the end of the available bag slots and want more, you need to upgrade those bags.  Fortunately, Anet has provided 2 options for players which they can use both.  Either add new bag slots and/or upgrade the bag size!

It sucks that you didn't feel good value from doing the achievement and got in a disagreement with your friends that left you feeling negative and scammed about the experience.  As you can see, there are many different opinions on the cost and acquisition of bags, and many  different user situations for having them.  At this point, you have the bag and you have unlocked the cheapest way to make the largest bag (165g per 32 Boreal Trunk to make now).

You may never need to make another 32 slot Boreal Trunk, but if you do, you won't have to grind the achievement at least.

 

You have unlocked the cheapest way to create the largest bags available to you.  For about 165g per bag, you can bang out 32 slot bags for all your characters now.

 

One more (editted) mathy thought;

Let's say you are going to buy an additional bag slot and then buy a new bag to put in that slot.  The cost per individual bag slot becomes:

((Bag Cost + Inventory Slot Cost)/Total Slots in Bag)

20 - 6.35g

24 - 6.25g

28 - 7.5g

32 - 11.25g

32 Boreal Trunk - 8.75g

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Jura.2170]

The biggest problem in the game is there arent any 40 slot bags and 30 slot bags

 

Some ppl don't like 24, 28 and 32 slots, they look horrible if your inventory is 10 slots wide

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jura.2170

[LucianDK.8615]

why would you need to be capped out on bagspace? Not remotely needed.

A much cheaper option than buying max 32 slot bags is the endless merchant item. And all your alts can benefit from it in a shared slot.      I run only 20 slot bags, beside the bigger ones from achievements and like on my main, and I never have any space issues.

[Brave Mallyki.1563]

Sounds like OP is upset that his friend didn't see how to play the game the same way he wants to play it, and is trying to blame ANet for not having the same philosophy about achievements for their disagreement.

Over the three achievements (if all three are completed) it takes to acquire the 32 Slot Boreal Trunk, you also obtain 127 AP, a 20-slot bag, a 24-slot bag, a Gift of Ice, and unlock over 40 weapon skins.

 

Sounds like someone is missing the forest for the trees.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Brave Mallyki.1563

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Not craft, but as a reward:  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illuminated_Boreal_Weapons

...that's what i thought. In which case the whole point about that achievement is moot, seeing as OP doesn't have to craft the bag at all. And as the whole achievement is not about it either.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[genjonah.1253]

1 hour ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

That is undoubtedly the case.

  

I agree and i probably wont let this one single thing keep me from playing it. It was just a very out of place experience for me.

  

Uhh... the achievement has literally nothing to do with unlocking any of the skins... you buy the base item and you are instantly eligible to buy the recipe for the "restored" version

Yes, the recipe. Which means you have to craft the next version. You realize there’s three (four of you count the drakkar ascended versions) different songs for each weapon type, each more elaborate than the last?

 

 Each achievement is literally about collecting the skins of the (ancient, restored, illuminated) boreal weapons. The bags (and bag recipes) are rewards along the way for different tiers 

[Infusion.7149]

Bag slots and larger bags than 20 slots aren't necessities.

If you're bad at math use this:
https://fast.farming-community.eu/bags/storage-bags

 

[Handsel.2891]

32-slot bags aren't needed, much like ascended equipment, which, you might have noticed, these bags count as. All ascended (and legendary) items have two things in common: they offer relatively small improvements over the tier just below them and their cost is sometimes severely disproportionate to said improvements. It's your choice whether you go for them or not. There are a lot of achievements that reward you with ascended armour pieces and weapons that sometimes cost much more to finish than if you were to craft something equivalent to the awarded item. I don't see how this achievement for the bag is different.

It's weird to me that this game has (one of) the least offensive approach(es) to convenience and cash shop items and yet, so many people try to find ways to prove just how evil and calculating Anet are...

[Stelawrat.6589]

4 hours ago, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

Offtopic, but just to humor your point... are you aware of the hierarchy of disagreement pyramid that details responses to a particular point and furthers a healthy discussion? It goes kinda like this from most productive to most toxic and destructive:
1. Refuting the central point: Explicitly refutes the central point of the argument
2. Refuting the general point: finds the mistake and explains why its mistaken in a general sense
3. Counter argument: contradicts the point, then elaborates why that would be the case using reasoning/evidence
4. Contradiction: States the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence
5. Responding to the tone: Criticizes the tone of the writing without addressing the point or substance of it
6. Ad hominem: Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance or point
7. Name calling

Thought it would be an interesting read for you, considering that you didnt post anything about the topic, but went through the effort of combing through all of my comments and quote every sentence where you disagree with the general tone, regardless of context or point.
Finally: Yes. I use hyperboles to underline my point. Not sure how interpreting this as "slander" is of use to anyone other than stirring up hate, but i can most positively assure you that if i want to slander someone, you will notice. I am not prone to doing it in a roundabout way, or softly for that matter.

Thank you for taking the time to humour my point.

No, I was not aware of the hierarchy of disagreement pyramid. 

As I was responding to @Gibson.4036, in support of my response to him, I quoted some of your categorical statements as examples, which I see falls under #5 of your referenced pyramid.

While your topic was, "How i took the largest hit to my opinion about the game...", judging from your statements, I genuinely felt that it devolved to your opinion about the developers.

In fact, that is what prompted my summary, "Clearly the OP feels that he's been intentionally duped, deliberately misled by the term "achievement" & that GW2's developers are responsible for this & deserve his labeling as a result." 

That you consider your criticisms of the developers to be a form of hyperbole, vs what I feel is slander, is a personal point of view. No matter which it is, it would not help to further any discussion about making a change to that achievement, which is what I was speaking to when responding to @Gibson.4036. 

My "interpretation" was in no way meant to "stir up hate" & at first I was mystified as to why you would think that to be the case, until I read further, when you more than cleared that up for me.

"...but i can most positively assure you that if i want to slander someone, you will notice. I am not prone to doing it in a roundabout way, or softly for that matter."

On that note, once again I'll end with, 

hopefully the OP will be able to find some happiness in this game, in the future as well. 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, MikeG.6389 said:

 

It's weird to me that this game has (one of) the least offensive approach(es) to convenience and cash shop items and yet, so many people try to find ways to prove just how evil and calculating Anet are...

I think that some people use that justification only to make claims for why stuff should be free.

[Moradorin.6217]

comparing account bound bags to per character slots is not exactly apples to apples. Because bags can be moved if you wana reroll a toon, change mains, what ever else may come up, but with bag slot upgrades you are stuck. Addtionally, you may also want to consider making 28 slot bags instead of 32 and compare the per slot price. iirc it is about 70-80g per 28 slot (@11g per rune) which is like 70-80g per 8 slots vs your 12 slots for 250g or what ever.

Im not sure why people jump directly to 32 slot when trying to upgrade bags it seems wateful. Upgrade the 28s to 32 once you have upgraded all your 20s to 28s. Its a hell of allot better cost wise and a pretty solid upgrade.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

While I don't expect you to change your mind, it is possible that you are misreading the rationale behind the 32 slot bags.

 

This is likely a "target market" issue.  The target market for 32 slot bags is likely to be players who've already maxed their bag slots and want even more space.  So, they can get get more space by upgrading their bags to 32 slots.

 

Sure, it takes a lot of gold to do so.  However, the main reason to want so much space in the first place is because the game is a hobby rather than a pastime.  I remember seeing many complaints about having to do bag management by players who play a lot.  If you play a lot, farming gold happens quite readily.  Also, upgrading a lot of bags provides a long-term goal for players who want to play that much.

 

I can't rule out that the reason was to push people towards the shop as a cheaper alternative than 32 slot bags, but that only works for people who aren't bag-slot maxed.  Meanwhile, since shortly after launch ANet has put tons of lengthy goals into the game to promote retention.  I believe that the financial health of the game is served by giving players more to do.  Players who stop playing don't buy anything.

 

Finally, I believe that those who've not maxed their bag space are less likely to want or need a 32 slot bag.  This would mean that setting them as the target market for a revenue-generation scheme is likely to provide underwhelming results.  Meanwhile, targeting those you know play a lot with a time-sink seems a lot more likely to pay off.

[Vayne.8563]

You can get a 32 slot bag from achievements in Sandswept Isles for free. /thread

edit: typo

Edited November 3, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Cuks.8241]

IBS did introduce to many grinding achievs and not enough skilled achievs. 

But you got yourself too worked up with this specific ones. There have been expensive achievs in the game since the start. I just take AP as the reward and everything else as a bonus. 

[Avatara.1042]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:52 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

I've been playing this game for 8+ years.  I have never needed a 32 slot bag.  Not sure what the complaint is with this thread?

Really?  There was a time when GW2 was entirely an inventory management game.

[Tyncale.1629]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:48 PM, Friday.7864 said:

And yes, Bag slots on sale is the best deal you can get when it comes to getting extra inv space.
The ones who go for 32 slot bags are usually ppl who max their Bag slots first and THEN fill them with 32 slot bags. 

So true.  I recently deleted the 20 slot Backpack(soulbound) that comes with every character since I now have all bagslots unlocked and filled them with 32 slot bags.  That was a nice moment.  

 

I now have 200+ free inventory slots so that I can salvage almost an entire stack of Unids in one go;

I am a huge hoarder. The junk I keep in my bags is unbelievable (Consumables mostly, like some useless single heal-item from a lowbie karma merchant, but it gives a nice animation of a flower sprouting; or an Ogre companion that helps you fight for 30 seconds and does the most pathetic DPS);

During events like Halloween lots of junk tends to fill up your bags and now I do not have to constantly delete them, I just do it once at the end of the 5 weeks. 

 

I LOVE utility and why can't we have 8 crafting licenses active on a single character?  🙂 

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:52 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

My understanding is that the complaint is about when the gem store incentivizes using it over earning something in game.

Here’s this thing you can earn with achievements that actually costs more gold than just buying gems.

There’s a kind of logic to either put in the work or put up the cash. But that logic breaks when doing the work actually costs more than not.

Not sure I would say the logic 'breaks' considering we know Anet wants our cash. Naturally, it makes sense it costs more to make it ingame than it does to GS it. At least to me it does. 

Let's think of this specific example in a different way ... Anet has ALWAYS monetized bank and bag slots ... so from my perspective, enabling the ability to craft 32 slot bags is actually pretty generous of them. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Klowdy.3126]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:01 AM, Aerensiniac.3584 said:

Partially.
My problem is that it directly sets the store against gameplay in the most destructive way possible.
As stated above several times: You have an achievement that lets you achieve something for 4 times the effort, twice the price and half the benefit.
The literal way the ancestral forge achievement reads is: "Look ma, im a dumb _____"

Why do you put something in the game as an ACHIEVEMENT no less, that makes the player feel like a clown and FORCES to view the developer team as a hustling, liar, car sales man?

This sounds like a personal opinion, and not the general consensus. I don't feel that way at all, and it seems most (if not all) of the other posters don't agree with your point of view. I am sorry you feel this way, but don't frame the situation like the playerbase has given you the okay to lobby them against the devs. I know people with multiple accounts that make that achievement their first, because they enjoy what is involved, and why not. 

[Aerensiniac.3584]

21 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Is it cheaper to buy a new bag slot and upgrade it to a 20 slot bag?  Sure is!  But if you reach the end of the available bag slots and want more, you need to upgrade those bags.

I have made this argument in the very first post.
I do understand that to someone who unlocked all slots, this might be of value, but there is no distinguishing factor.
At face value nobody wants to open bag slots on a character cause they are locked to the specific character. It makes more sense to buy bank slots and/or material storage, but lets say that you are a whale or someone who played this game nonstop since it came out, and everything is unlocked on your account. Sure. Then there is some value for you here.

However, for every and anyone who is not walking in those shoes, this is literally a net-loss, a detriment, a scam disguised as an achievement, cause it makes you lose out on gold. HARD.
 

 

20 hours ago, Brave Mallyki.1563 said:

Sounds like OP is upset that his friend didn't see how to play the game the same way he wants to play it, and is trying to blame ANet for not having the same philosophy about achievements for their disagreement.

Over the three achievements (if all three are completed) it takes to acquire the 32 Slot Boreal Trunk, you also obtain 127 AP, a 20-slot bag, a 24-slot bag, a Gift of Ice, and unlock over 40 weapon skins.

 

Sounds like someone is missing the forest for the trees.

Im not going to argue with someone who thinks that buying a car for 100 grand or buying the exact same car for 250 grand is a difference of "how to play the game". I'll just let your statement speak for you.
 

12 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

While I don't expect you to change your mind, it is possible that you are misreading the rationale behind the 32 slot bags.

 

This is likely a "target market" issue.  The target market for 32 slot bags is likely to be players who've already maxed their bag slots and want even more space.  So, they can get get more space by upgrading their bags to 32 slots.

Yes, as i have stated it myself: in such a situation the achievement is a benefit.
I will fully agree with you that the problem here is a design one. Players who have no access to all slots probably should not even see this achievement cause for them its a direct detriment, disguised as an achievement no less.

How it can be resolved in a positive manner, i dont really think, but my main point was that, this is a badly misplaced/thought out feature. Could have been a quest, or an unlock collection through some other qualifiers or perquisites, but just tossing this in there as a free for all achievement... that was a mistake. That IS a mistake.

 

17 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I think that some people use that justification only to make claims for why stuff should be free.

I wrote down specifically whats wrong here. For those who can unlock bag slots, this achievement is a detriment. Not an achievement. A scam. They pay for the same thing, almost double if not triple.
That was the problem.

As for making items free: Knocking on the wrong door there m8.
Making items free just reduces their overall value and makes lesser versions obsolete. You trade in one problem for 5 other problems with that idea.

 

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You can get a 32 slot bag from achievements in Sandswept Isles for free. /thread

edit: typo

Got both unlockable 32 slot bags.
Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, or the fact that this achievement is badly placed/designed.
/kiss
 

3 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

IBS did introduce to many grinding achievs and not enough skilled achievs. 

But you got yourself too worked up with this specific ones. There have been expensive achievs in the game since the start. I just take AP as the reward and everything else as a bonus. 

From the perspective of a few days, sure. It was a mistake to get worked up.
I do stick to my argument that this achievement is out of place and badly designed to the detriment of many players. It could have been an achievement which unlocks when certain requirements are met. Not necessarily unlocking all bag slots on a character, but some requirements that make it drift closer to the players which actually see value out of it.

As it is right now, its just a landmine in the open, waiting for people to step on it and feel stupid about it. Aka: Bad design.