The Subscription Option Debate: How Guild Wars 2 Can Implement This

[Crash.4376]

It doesn't have to be either/or...I first want to start off by expressing that I'm not debating whether or not this game should stay buy to play with no sub fees or have a subscription model. My argument is, why not both? I don't know how taboo it is to mention other games here, but there are others out there who implement both very well. If you simply want to buy the game and play without a sub fee, you certainly can. If you want to pay a subscription with added perks, you can do that as well. I'm not a business man by any means but the most common advice out there for people who want to be financially secure is to have multiple streams of income. And I think we can all agree that we want Arena Net to be here, not as long as they can be, but for as long as they choose to be, which is hopefully forever.

How Guild Wars 2 Can Make It WorkAfter almost 8 years, Guild Wars 2 has developed systems that has made life a lot easier for us. One system that I have not seen not seen in other MMOs is the material storage. Being able to deposit all of your crafting materials, directly from the inventory, and in a separate storage system outside of your bank is a huge lifesaver! Not only that, but to be able to extract those materials while crafting makes it incredibly convenient, however, it sure does fill up fast. Imagine if that storage space was unlimited?

A more recent feature introduced to us were Guild Templates. This is something that the playerbase has wanted since launch and we finally have it! Except, with only 2 template tabs per character and only 6 build storage tabs total for your account, having multiple builds for all of our characters is impossible. Now imagine if that was also unlimited?

Then there's Living World. Imagine being a new player that would love to delve deep into all of that story content, only realize that all of the story chapters prior to each expansion is locked off. You can do the vanilla story for free, and the ones from Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire will be unlocked after purchasing them Personally, I would not have it in me to grind the gold or buy the gems just to do them. However, imagine if you could unlock them all and dive deep into it?

ConclusionThe point I'm trying to make is that why not offer an optional subscription model that could, for example, give you unlimited material storage space, unlimited build templates, and all of the story content thus far? Along with that, give 200 gems per month. Maybe toss in an Black Lion Key with that. It would give the players a great way to support the game, all while, enjoying the conveniences it has to offer. Simply having items in the gem store isn't going to entice everyone. They're fine to have and some people enjoy them. However I do think only relying on the gem store alone is a gamble and having another stream of income would be healthy for a company. It could lead to more development in more development in areas like WvW and raids. Possibly more expansions in the future. Maybe even a new game introduced that's not part of the Guild Wars universe.

What do you all think? Share your thoughts on this. If you like the idea, what else can Anet throw in the pot? If you hate the idea, please tell me why.

Thanks for reading and I'll see you all in game!

[zealex.9410]

My opinion is that theres should be a 10 bucks or so sub that unlocks all lw for you and maybe gives you some gems on the side.

This would make the entry fee for lw cheaper and also much simpler for new players who could just spend 10 bucks and play all of it over the course of a month. They can decide afterwards if they wanna use the gems to buy some of the episodes for the metas or some other reason.

I think thats a good compromise to the whole "lw pay business model is good/bad debate"

As for the storage comment, i think unlimited is too much and really sets up the sub as something too good to simply call optional, maybe a better aproach would be to have the sub unlock some storage expanders for you?

But i doubt it will happen, ppl here have a pretty big hate bonner for subfees.

[Burnfall.9573]

+1

'What do you all think? Share your thoughts on this. If you like the idea, what else can Anet throw in the pot? If you hate the idea, please tell me why.'

'Thanks for reading and I'll see you all in game!'

-It is a Bad idea-No Thank You!!-

[Josiah.2967]

Let me introduce you to Rift. These kind of decisions are when the mass exodus begins.

[Teratus.2859]

Some do both, some only.. but some stand against it.

Personally I'd rather throw my money into the cash shop for irrelevant cosmetics and support the game that way.

I don't like subscription models... actually scratch that.. I despise them with a passion.Doesn't matter to me how "fair" or "justified" some people think they are, I consider them little more than a con job.

WoW is probably an easy example, You buy the game, you buy the computer to play the game, you pay a fee for the internet conneciton to play the game, you buy the expansions, and then you have to pay another monthly fee on top of that so your account doesn't get taken away and held for ransom...Oh and there's also a cash shop in there too full of exclusive items.. the most basic of which cost about the same as what gw2 charges you for a premium mount skin..And the special premium ones cost even more than that.

Now im not knocking WoW as a game.. just it's business model, but if people want to put that kind of money into a game where they can have it all taken away from them the second the fall on hard times or something.. that's totally their choice.

But I can't jusity it.. and I especially can't justify it when it's added as a mandatory requirement to something that has been a free feature for years.. Sony and Nintendo lost a lot of my business for that decision, I'm not wasting money on games where a decent chunk of the fun and content on the game i've paid for is locked behind a subfee.So with that I've walked away from consoles entirely this generation because I no longer see the value in them anymore.Why buy hundreds of euros worth of hardware for only a handful of games?.. just not worth it.It's a bit sad really, i'm sitting in front of 14 consoles&handheld systems as I write this.. some of the oldest ones i've owned and enjoyed for pretty close to 30 years now.I take no pleasure in the idea of not buying consoles anymore but if this is the future for them then it's one I can't be part of.

Guildwars was always anti-subfee, and I think this is one thing that Anet will never be able to walk back on.Even if it was optional I think a lot of people would take it as a sign to walk away from this franchise, not because they fear Gw2 will someday go mandatory sub.. but because they fear any/all future Anet games will.. so they won't want to invest in that anymore, and my guess is that will significantly diminish the money Anet makes from the gemstore.

[kharmin.7683]

You can already subscribe on your own. Spend $20 on gems every month. No need to force others to do so.

I am so sick of this argument coming up.

[Zephire.8049]

For optional subs you have to either offer things that have no real benefit, thus making it far less likely people will get one outside of showing support, or you offer a tangible benefit which makes the sub all but required. From what I've seen of other MMOs that have an optional sub, this means crafting ends up becoming a "premium" ability which in turn makes crafting pointless for anyone who doesn't want to shell out $5-$10 a month for a game they already bought. Your suggestion of making material storage unlimited would already cause huge issues of people buying up thousands of stacks of cheap mats just because they can. (You also have to find a way to compensate people who bought material storage expansions)

You can currently support the game by spending $5, $10, $20, $50+ on gems every month. Why do you want to punish others—a large number of whom chose GW2 because Anet has been anti-sub for 16+ years—for something that you can already do, albeit without automation or being able to feel superior to others who chose not to/can't afford a sub?

[miraude.2107]

Sooooo your whole thing has already been implemented in another game. Elder Scrolls Online. Your whole model is basically their ESO+ system. The system that ultimately made players like me leave the game because it basically ended up being that anything that was a QoL improvement became locked behind that 'optional subscription'.

Locking material storage behind it, would kill a lot of the playerbase super fast since that was something that was free to have in the beginning and would be seen as a loose P2W cash grab.Locking templates behind it when you already have to pay for more templates would be ripped apart by the PvP/WvW crowd as forcing their hand into having a sub to be able to play their favorite game mode.We already get living world for free for the months, MONTHS, that they are available as current content and you don't even need to play through the story. Just log in, log out. And seeing as they are offering the icebrood saga for free yet again albeit on a shorter time frame shows that Anet is quite happy with the model of if you didn't get it when it was current, please pay for it. And again, this was something that has been around for a while. Suddenly having that pulled away would also drastically knock out the player base if they found out they now needed a sub to get it.

If it isn't broken, DON'T FIX IT. It's pretty clear their current model is working fine if they are able to announce that there will be a third expansion. My only gripe is that there should be mount skins in game to be able to collect. Honestly would have preferred mount skins to emotes I'll never use. That'd entice new players to want to keep up with the story along with buying the PoF/HoT expansions (also seeing that buying PoF gets you HoT for free).

Overall, the ESO system you described is more detrimental to new players than what GW2 is and well, if you read articles, the lack of a subscription, optional or not, is what makes GW2 appealing for people to try. I mean, I have friends that play WoW and do not enjoy the game at all anymore however they still play because of the money they sunk into the game. Same thing with the friends who play ESO. They don't really enjoy playing anymore but because they need ESO+ to have access to QoL things that should have been in game in the first place, they feel obligated to continue playing. I like that I can play and then ignore the game for a few days/weeks/months. I like that if I get a messed up schedule where I can't sit and play, I can log on and then log off and know I can access that story at a later date and time when I'm not a headless chicken. I do not want to go back to my WoW days of logging on after work and playing for 4+ hours because I'm spending $15 a month on the game. I do not want to go back to my ESO days of spending $15 a month on having storage so I wouldn't get kicked from dungeons for having full bags. Or the frustration of knowing the sub was ending and having to pick and choose what materials I should store in my bank and remember just how unfriendly the game is to having alts.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@"Crash.4376" said:It doesn't have to be either/or...I first want to start off by expressing that I'm not debating whether or not this game should stay buy to play with no sub fees or have a subscription model. My argument is, why not both? I don't know how taboo it is to mention other games here, but there are others out there who implement both very well. If you simply want to buy the game and play without a sub fee, you certainly can. If you want to pay a subscription with added perks, you can do that as well. I'm not a business man by any means but the most common advice out there for people who want to be financially secure is to have multiple streams of income. And I think we can all agree that we want Arena Net to be here, not as long as they can be, but for as long as they choose to be, which is hopefully forever.

How Guild Wars 2 Can Make It WorkAfter almost 8 years, Guild Wars 2 has developed systems that has made life a lot easier for us. One system that I have not seen not seen in other MMOs is the material storage. Being able to deposit all of your crafting materials, directly from the inventory, and in a separate storage system outside of your bank is a huge lifesaver! Not only that, but to be able to extract those materials while crafting makes it incredibly convenient, however, it sure does fill up fast. Imagine if that storage space was unlimited?

A more recent feature introduced to us were Guild Templates. This is something that the playerbase has wanted since launch and we finally have it! Except, with only 2 template tabs per character and only 6 build storage tabs total for your account, having multiple builds for all of our characters is impossible. Now imagine if that was also unlimited?

Then there's Living World. Imagine being a new player that would love to delve deep into all of that story content, only realize that all of the story chapters prior to each expansion is locked off. You can do the vanilla story for free, and the ones from Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire will be unlocked after purchasing them Personally, I would not have it in me to grind the gold or buy the gems just to do them. However, imagine if you could unlock them all and dive deep into it?

ConclusionThe point I'm trying to make is that why not offer an optional subscription model that could, for example, give you unlimited material storage space, unlimited build templates, and all of the story content thus far? Along with that, give 200 gems per month. Maybe toss in an Black Lion Key with that. It would give the players a great way to support the game, all while, enjoying the conveniences it has to offer. Simply having items in the gem store isn't going to entice everyone. They're fine to have and some people enjoy them. However I do think only relying on the gem store alone is a gamble and having another stream of income would be healthy for a company. It could lead to more development in more development in areas like WvW and raids. Possibly more expansions in the future. Maybe even a new game introduced that's not part of the Guild Wars universe.

What do you all think? Share your thoughts on this. If you like the idea, what else can Anet throw in the pot? If you hate the idea, please tell me why.

Thanks for reading and I'll see you all in game!

Dear. God. No.

[yoni.7015]

There is no need to implement this!

[Clex Mix.7624]

First off there's a few issues I have with what you've said in terms of arguing for a sub based model. First you say that other games implement Free to Play and Sub options quite well. Name one. Because all the ones I've tried with this model are typically heavily favored for Sub based players. I'm not talking about the ability to pay for game time on World of Warcraft with gold. I'm talking about ones that actually have a Free to Play model past 1/5 of the overall levels. For example, SWTOR. The free to play model is absolutely horrendous and on top of that, even with a Sub you barely get any Cartel Credits to actually be able to buy anything off the Cartel Market. Which also has tons of "surprise mechanics" boxes and cosmetics a player with a Sub would have to further spend money on Coins to obtain. It's a cash grab.

Secondly, there are nice quality of life systems in this game yes, but the limit of said systems is ultimately to entice players to either spend gold or money to amplify their convenience. The fact of the matter is there have been a LOT of players, up to this point, who have made additional "bank accounts". Imagine having spent the money on a secondary account to increase bank size and bag sizes a little bit because you're a pack rat, then ANet up and decides to add a sub option that completely makes it a waste of money. No matter when those players made those accounts and how long they've reaped the benefits of having "increased storage capacity" they will feel completely slighted.

Thirdly, (always feels so weird to say thirdly) new players in most MMO's are going to feel a bit... shall we say... behind. Not so much "lost" or I guess slighted in the fact that some parts of the game aren't as accessible to them. And by this I entirely mean living story. You have to keep in mind that Guild Wars 2 has Living World Stories locked behind a pay wall to new players for a reason. Money. It may seem like a shit reason, it may seem a bit cash grabby at first, but I think if you were to give a player ample time (leveling to 80) to make up their mind whether or not they wanted to make those purchases, that's entirely up to said player. Now, you make ask yourself "why keep the current model of logging on to unlock the chapters for free?" Well to that my answer is because typically with any living world release ANet has also released something in the gem store. Sure not all players buy gems with cash. Sure some players probably never use the gemstore. But, those that do, either for cosmetic or convenience help keep this game afloat.

Now if this game released with a sub model, then I'd entirely be against A LOT of the things on the gem store. And the problem you'd have with adding a sub to a game that has followed a certain model of putting certain things on the gem store for player convenience, example being something like infinite gatherer tools, is that there would be a HUGE point of contention for players who opted to pay for a sub. These players would complain that they already have to pay for the game to get some things like infinite crafting storage (your example) then why can't they have access to infinite gathering tools without having to spend gems on them as well. Not to mention players to opt to not pay monthly would feel slighted that not only do they lose out on having access to infinite storage, or gems or keys or whatever else you used as an example, but what about the money they've already invested into things like that. Storage space/character slots, possibly Living World Chapters. They would then feel they should be compensated for what they have spent money on.

Lastly, you say that a sub based model would be a great way to support the game, I guess as long as you get some pretty outstanding rewards for doing so. Infinite Storage space, 200 gems monthly + a key, plus unlimited templates etc etc... But how can you quantify the return on rewards for a sub account vs a free to play account. The things you've listed would add up to thousands of dollars of gem store upgrades. To prove my point here, it would cost $100 alone to increase crafting storage capacity by 2,500. Now.... that's a lot of space for some materials, not so much for others. You can get loads of silk and BLOODSTONE DUST pretty easily and for a few materials it would be nice to have that much, but for others I'd doubt having infinite storage, let alone 2500, would be needed. Part of this game isn't just about hoarding everything, it's one of the best online "Auction Houses" in any MMO that I've played and that might be due to it being game-wide and not just server-wide. Either way... the point I'm making is there wouldn't be a need for the infinite storage space. Most players end up selling excess mats either directly or through ascended crafting. Not to mention the amount of money ANet might actually lose going to a sub based model... or the headache of locking access to a players materials or having to mail it all back to a player if they stopped paying for a sub and they had mats beyond what their storage capacity was before subbing.... using your "sub based rewards" model.

I guess the point is.... there's literally no need for a sub.

[Ameepa.6793]

Sub is not needed or wanted. All it would do is drive people away.

[Clex Mix.7624]

To add to what I said, when this game first launched and prior to Scarlet Era, I probably dropped a couple hundred dollars over time on the gem store, and I never felt cheated doing so. I felt like the game was so well polished at launch I genuinely felt I owed it to ANet to help support them further out of the enjoyment I got out of their product and it being a pay once game at that.

[Tukaram.8256]

They can't have both without screwing it up. That is the way business works. If they have a subscription level, new content will end up being just for subs - it just will. We got the gem store with some pretty shiny stuff... now almost all QOL improvements are gem store only. You really thing a subscription would be any different?

It will just drive players away, and make the bean counters try to push the subscription more. Better to just keep using the gem store. Already a lot of the living world is available for gem purchase. Why would we need a sub?

[mercury ranique.2170]

Who would benefit from a sub?The players certainly do not.And Arenanet does not as well.

Arenanets main trademark is that it always has been subtree and the guarantee this will be this way forever. They actually are the reason sub free games exist and most others only have an optional fee. It was their effort in a poisoned market if subs that paved the way.

The main issue with subs is the level of addiction that is added. Games are addictive. Social interactions are addictive. This makes MMO's in essence addictive. With monthly fees you add to this addiction another trigger (I paid for it so I have to play).

The only reason to want subs is the illusion that arenanet would develop more and richer content. This desire is also part of addiction. Is it really so bad to wait a bit between episodes? Are you that hungry for the next dose of content?

[maddoctor.2738]

Let's see a different kind of issue with your suggestion:You are saying to give players "unlimited" storage if they pay a monthly sub. Unlimited is unlikely due to how the system is designed/implemented, in order to get all bank tabs and all storage expanders you'd need to pay about 16000 gems, which is 100 euro/$How long would this "sub" last and how much would it cost? If it costs something like $5, in the 2nd year of having it you will have surpassed the cost of buying the items. And that assumes you never bought a storage expander or bank tab (which is unlikely), the more of those you have already, the less appealing/useful unlimited storage is gonna be.

If you want an "unlimited storage sub-fee", start paying 800 gems a month ($5 a month) to buy expanders and bank tabs, in about 20 months you will have the maximum storage, and you won't have to pay for it again.

As for unlimited build templates, I'd rather they bring us their revamped system first and reserve judgement for when that happens.edit: But, a similar logic to the above can be used for templates. If you pay some amount of gems every month to unlock more templates, you will eventually have as many as you will ever need, then paying an "extra sub" will become unnecessary. Just pace yourself and buy the "unlimited storage/templates" every month. In the end you will reach the point you won't need to buy anymore AND don't have to pay anymore.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Crash.4376" said:It doesn't have to be either/or...I first want to start off by expressing that I'm not debating whether or not this game should stay buy to play with no sub fees or have a subscription model. My argument is, why not both?Because while any of those options has its good and bad sides, having both generally means having the worst of both worlda.

I don't know how taboo it is to mention other games here, but there are others out there who implement both very well.Which ones? And please, do not mention ESO (as this is definitely not an example of "implementing both very well")

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

No. /end discussion

[Clyan.1593]

Even if it was just optional, it 100% will kill off this game.One. Hundret.Percent.

[Randulf.7614]

If the idea had merit they would be doing it since they know and understand their business and the industry better than the players.

[lare.5129]

this idea can be generated only if someone play gw2, want drop and go in another project, but can't find reason why ..

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Crash.4376" said:How Guild Wars 2 Can Make It WorkAfter almost 8 years, Guild Wars 2 has developed systems that has made life a lot easier for us. One system that I have not seen not seen in other MMOs is the material storage. Being able to deposit all of your crafting materials, directly from the inventory, and in a separate storage system outside of your bank is a huge lifesaver! Not only that, but to be able to extract those materials while crafting makes it incredibly convenient, however, it sure does fill up fast. Imagine if that storage space was unlimited?

Everything they do will be framed in the context of "did they do this for force people into subscribing?" Eternal Ice already has this problem. Some of the items you buy require more than 250 shards but the default material storage only holds 250. Other things that has had similar design issue are bloodstone dust, empyreal fragments and dragonite ore. Especially when bloodstone was always dropping in double digits but always used in sets of 100. Those may or maybe not have been done with malicious intent but add this in and ever future decision along similar lines will be view as being done with malicious intent.

A more recent feature introduced to us were Guild Templates. This is something that the playerbase has wanted since launch and we finally have it! Except, with only 2 template tabs per character and only 6 build storage tabs total for your account, having multiple builds for all of our characters is impossible. Now imagine if that was also unlimited?

It took 7 years, requires paying for it and still didn't meet people's requirements. People's reaction were not great. Now imagine asking those people to pay a subscription for it. Defenestration would not be surprising.

In both cases it also depends on whether or not you think a game/developer's reputation matters. Several game publishers have awful reputations but they still make tons of money so maybe not. On the other hand that leads to the question "how much are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of money?". Also note that the reputation can also apply to people you might want to keep in your employ or new hires.

Then there is the technical side of things. The design decisions that would enable unlimited storage might be long pass. Templates being more recent might seem more amendable but what if the reason templates has their limits is due to using the same underlying storage mechanisms?

As for general concepts, I am a huge fan of "company offers product, I give money to company, company gives me product". In this regard I think Path of Exile's supporter packs are much nicer. The fact that the products essentially become free if you buy the highest tier packs is a nice bonus. Battle passes are probably the worst. You want me to pay AND still have to work for the end result? It's like a hitman forcing you to dig your own grave.

[Friday.7864]

If you want to support the game buy gems every month like I do.Don't know what to do with the gems? Do a giveaway for your guild or send them to me.

[Danikat.8537]

Elder Scrolls Online does this and it creates two big problems:

1) Lots of quality of life improvements which in GW2 are added to the base game for everyone to use are instead made subscription benefits, which makes it increasingly impractical to play without a subscription so it becomes less and less optional. And yet subscribers never seem to feel they've got enough and are always asking for more things to be added, or even removed from the base game and reserved only for subscribers to have.

2) It creates a rift between players with a lot of animosity on both sides. Players who don't subscribe are "free loaders" who are too cheap or selfish to "support" the game (no matter how much they actually spend on expansions, DLC and cash shop currency). Players who do subscribe are "sheep" who are blindly throwing money away because they're so desperate to impress a company that couldn't care less about anything except how much they spend. Players on both 'sides' will use the fact that someone does/does not subscribe s a reason to look down on them or invalidate their opinions and there's even been calls to split the severs so subscribers and non-subscribers never see each other in the game. (With the assumption that subscribers will get better quality, more reliable servers, of course.)

Add on the issues already raised in this topic and I much prefer GW2's system.

As people have already said if you want to subscribe to GW2 all you need to do is buy gems in whatever amount you think is appropriate once a month and then use them to buy whatever you think your subscription benefit should be this month. Even better you get to keep all this stuff even if you stop 'subscribing' instead of having it all taken away just because you don't want to pay even more for stuff you've already purchased.

[kharmin.7683]

Unlimited storage? Wouldn't that encourage hoarding? What, then, would happen to the in-game economy?